¿Possible for LARGE oil reserves deep under Mars?

[brellis]

<i>eau</i> now I get it <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />hi H2O<br /><br /><br />I have done some research, i.e. I looked at your "profile". Tu viens de France, n'est-ce pas?<br /><br />Okay, that's about as far off-topic as I should go. Back to "oil on Mars". I dug around and found this thread in which the matter was discussed at some length.<br /><br />In that thread, one member "jatslo" revealed himself to be an unusual character to say the least, while our esteemed veteran experts JonClarke, sylene et al represented SDC's mental acumen quite capably.<br /><br />They got into a debate on logic, and Tom_Hobbes came up with this winner:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Apples are not oranges. My sofa is not an orange. Therefore my sofa is an apple.</font><br /><br />I'd use this as my new sig line, but my sofa actually IS an orange, so I must resist that temptation.<br /><br />To anyone hoping for it, good luck finding oil on Mars. Get some investors! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Now THERE's a trip down memory lane! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Thanks to both yourself and H20Universe for widening my view of historical colonisations <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Food for thought.<br /><br />I think that any discussion of a future Mars has to be grounded in human realities- the way people and societies behave, particularly economically. I think such an isolated, distant colony may well come to find allegiances to particular patches of ground on Earth remote. Will people self-identify as American-Martian, Chinese-Martian, or African-Martian? Will they say "Bob is from the American sector", or "Bob is from Syrtis Major"?<br /><br />Terraforming is an intriguing problem. Economically, effectively one is talking of utilising a vast amount of resources to create a Commons. People need to consider what might motivate humans to do this, economically. If it requires enormous economic resources, how eager will people be to devote them if it will take a thousand years? It's a matter of time preferences. Very few people will be keen to sacrifice "now" to benefit distant descendents that are hard to imagine. How much work would you or I do for the people who'll live in 3007? Not much, truth be told.<br /><br />Mars oil (if it exists!) might be useful because I can burn it now to power my Mars tractor, and dump the emissions (and low grade heat from the engine) into the atmosphere to help terraforming. But that heat's really just going to be radiated into space, isn't it? Do we want an atmosphere predominantly composed from petrol fumes? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />"We" can use the mars oil to power plants that melt and liberate water from the regolith. But the plant operators need to be in business. How can they make money from running their water plants, and is a water plant economically viable? Ultimately, what's the economic model on which terraforming will be based? It's fun discussing the "how", but I personally am increasingly interested in the "why", because until that is answered nothing can eve

 

[JonClarke]

I think you raise some ver important points there that are rarely considered. To have permanant settlemenrs on Mars, let alone a society that is able to consider terraforming, you must have an economic system that pays for itself.<br /><br />At the moment there is no material commodity that can be exploited on Mars that would pay for the smallest settlements. to me that mans that, for the forseeable future, any martian settlements would be scientfic stations. Maybe a knowledge-based economy would be self sustaining. But so far we can't even do that with LEO, let alone Mars.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />Good to see that you are making a lot of interesting & informative posts again.<br /><br />Probably a stupid question.<br /><br />Does Mars have surface Uranium, Thorium, Iridium etc?<br />If so, this could be an important commodity.<br /><br />These probably exist in the core.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

What oil is that?<br />I am not aware on any oil on comets, can you provide a link? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

Not to be a wet blanket to everyone, but...<br /><br />The great thing about oil here on Earth is that all you have to do is put a match to it and "FROOM!", it cathes fire. Refining it can even give you something that makes those nifty explosions in your engine that make your car/tractor/generator go.<br /><br />My point is, that all works on Earth, where we have gobs and gobs of oxygen just floating around willy nilly. Why, you can light practically ANYTHING on fire here...<br /><br />On Mars, they have CO2 (ah shucks, that 02 alread has all the C it needs? Drats), Nitrogen (no good for burning oil), and Aargon (noble gas). Even if there were MASSIVE oil reserves on Mars, what good would it do you? It certainly wouldn't be worth the cost of shipping it back to Earth. And the only way you could burn in on Mars would be to seperate oxygen from something else (some of the meager water ice perhaps? Oh wait, now I have this nifty Hydrogen on hand). <br /><br />I suppose you could spend the energy to seperate it from CO2, but all you'll be doing with that new oxygen is turning it back into CO2! You certainly didn't gain any energy. You'll need to gather energy from somewhere else, like solar, to keep this process going, and for all that, you might as well use the solar energy directly!<br /><br />As for trying to build up greenhouse gases to warm up the planet, like I said, you'd have to take the oxygen from the CO2, to burn the oil, so you can make the CO2... you end up with exactly the same amount of greenhouse gas as you started with!

 

[vandivx]

<p>jaxtraw you have terrific views on environmentalism but your defense of it is rather lacking, you should work on that<br /><br />I mean if you get challenged on the oceans rising not by millimeters as you said, the proper come on should be so what if they rise a bit and flood some islands and lowlands, such thing would happen over long enough time that at some point existing generation would live out their lives there and the young generation if vise enough would move to mainland and or inland, its not like somebody would be chased out of his home, we are talking about pretty long term effect<br />also one should say, so what if somebody has to move, history is full of it, nature is not nice and it chased and even outright killed people before and there was no industrial age then which is allegedly causing it now (false)<br /><br />there is plenty land for those folks to move to, lots of undevelopped empty land around if only people were reasonable, I mean fly over Canada as just one example (another is Russian steppes and Siberia etc etc, even Africa is two thirds empty) just about anywhere, that land could absorb easily any such migration and only mandatory socialistic system prevents it being used<br /><br />mvp347 on the other hand is fully taken in by today's green earth propaganda and in the tow of that even forgets there is little if any oxygen on Mars to burn the oil as was pointed out and even if you could burn oil there it would have no significant effect anyway (again as explained - additional tied in effects would be needed and even then)<br /><br />as for oil on Mars, I see it as likely existing as not and if its there it will be from past fosil deposits when Mars was green and flourished and it was all put stop to at some point in distant past<br /><br />I said in that thread on Mars cave that the black spot might be pool of oil, not a cave opening, I'd be laughing it it turned up to be true in the end</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew<br /><br />The potential mineral resources on Mars are a very interesting question.<br /><br />As you doubtless know, elements can be divided geochemically into atmophile, lithophile, siderophile or chalcophile elements, according to their tendency to end up in the atmosphere, in silicates and oxides, in metallic iron, or as sulphides. It is not an either-or situation, some elements have a combination of tendencies.<br /><br />What this means that siderophiles will tend to be concentrated in planetary cores, chalcophiles in mantle and unevolved crustal systems, and lithophiles in evolved crustal systems<br /><br />Thorium and Uranium are both lithophiles. Iridium is a siderophile. Of other elements of economic interest, Cu, Zn, Pb, As, Se are chalcophiles, Ni is a chalcophile and siderophile, Cr, Sn, Ti W are lithophiles.<br /><br />Mars has a relatively unevolved crust dominated by mafic rocks. We would expect to see magmatic deposits of Cu, Ni, As, PGEs, Ti, and Cr. Hyrothermal systems do occur, and could potentially contain Cu, Pb, Zn, As sulphides. We know we have diagenetic and surficial enrichment in Fe to ore grades (the blueberry lags on the surface of Meridiani. We woulds not expect to see deposits of U, Th, W, Sn. I am not saying they don't exist, it is just that they will be very, very rare because their host rocks are also very rare.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Jon<br />Actually I should have said "some Russians". And I am repeating (may be in a silly way) what I read sometime ago in several articles, including on space.com!!! see link below<br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/asteroid_oil_991213.html<br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/great_dying_040513.html<br />Although I am not convinced by that theory (and there is no evidence for it), I cited that as a mind-opening element.<br />I do not dare challenging the fact that "surface" oil fields are fossil! That is clear. But isn't it possible that hydrocarbon-rich layers reside deeper in the crust? with a different nature?.<br /><br />As a geologist Jon, you probably have elements to discard that. That would not be the first time such articles overhyped something <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" />.<br />As far as tar on comets is concerned: I thought it was accepted that comets include large quantities of heavy hydrocarbons. That this is exactly tar, or tar-like, or or another heavy hydrocarbon, would not be very important in my humble opinion.<br />http://www.space.com/news/stardust_tar_000428.html<br />http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=1201<br />http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMR26W4QWD_index_0.html<br /><br />As far as Titan is concerned, may be observations from Cassini and Huygens killed the plastic stuff. But the presence of "plastics", including particles of polysterene was an idea floating some years ago and I did not see a dismissal. But may be I have missed it.<br />http://www.</safety_wrapper

 

[h2ouniverse]

Brellis,<br />answer is : oui. (<img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" />)<br />As far as oil is concerned: in fact I do not care! I do not believe in heavy-mining colonies. Let alone drilling several kms to be able to tap hydrocarbons and then what? burn them? with which oxygen? <br />Solar Energy will be good enough. No use to have huge glasshouses of hydroponics to produce oxygen just to burn oil!! <br />Sincerely yours.

 

[eaglesindiana]

It's not a question of if but of where

 

[owenander]

[[[The Greens have made it clear that their goal is reduction of the world economy]]]<br /><br />That's possibly the dumbest most bias statement I've read on these forums.

 

[h2ouniverse]

"Now THERE's a trip down memory lane! "<br /><br />Jon,<br />I went to the thread Brellis linked. Now I understand your exasperation given the "special" attitude of Jatslo. I must say that reading these kafkaian posts was quite painful. Amid the rubbles of delirium posted however, I could not see an argument from you killing the cometary theory (although I suspect you gave up as the conversation turned irrational on that old thread).<br /><br />Again, I do not support particularly the abiogenic theory (I really do not care). <br />Sorry to ask for something probably obvious for you.<br /><br />Regards.

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Joel<br /><br />Yep, a couple of Russians only have argued for abiogenic oil. But they are on the fringe, even in Russia.<br /><br />As I have said elsewhere, any theory of petroleum genesis has to explain the following:<br /><br />1) The almost universal association of petroleum with sedimentary rocks.<br /><br />2) The close link between petroleum reservoirs and source rocks as shown by biomarkers (the source rocks contain the same organic markers as the petroleum, essentially chemically fingerprinting the two).<br /><br />3) The consistent variation of biomarkers in petroleum in accordance with the history of life on earth (biomarkers indicative of land plants are found only in Devonian and younger rocks, that formed by marine plankton only in Neoproterozoic and younger rocks, the oldest oils containing only biomarkers of bacteria).<br /><br />3) The close link between the biomarkers in source rock and depositional environment (source rocks containing biomarkers of land plants are found only in terrestrial and shallow marine sediments, those indicating marine conditions only in marine sediments, those from hypersaline lakes containing only bacterial biomarkers).<br /><br />4) Progressive destruction of oil when heated to over 100 degrees (precluding formation and/or migration at high temperatures as implied by the abiogenic postulate).<br /><br />5) The generation of petroleum from kerogen on heating in the laboratory (complete with biomarkers), as suggested by the biogenic theory.<br /><br />6) The strong enrichment in C12 of petroleum indicative of biological fractionation (no inorganic process can cause anything like the fractionation of light carbon that is seen in petroleum).<br /><br />7) The location of petroleum reservoirs down the hydraulic gradient from the source rocks in many cases (those which are not are in areas where there is clear evidence of post migration tectonism).<br /><br />8 ) The almost complete absence of significant petroleum occurrences in igneous and m <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Thank you very much Jon, for your thorough answer to my question.<br /><br />Yes I was aware of the different groupings, but was not sure of their content in relation to the <br />surface aerology of Mars.<br /><br />Your answer has put that right.<br /><br />So I was basically correct after all.<br /><br />Another question,<br /><br />Do you think that we will find samples of primordial Mars on the surfaces of Phobos & Deimos<br />(dependent on when they were captured I suppose)?<br /><br />Its the Longest Day (Summer Solstice) here today for us in the north. <br /><br />Of course Jon, its your Shortest Day (Winter Solstice) today.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Conversations with jatslo did tend to have a kafkaesque flavour <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> This gem somes it up:<br /><br />"Earth has water, organics, and oil; comets have water, so comets also might contain organics and oil, because Earth and comets are similar in terms of water; therefore, they might also be similar in terms of oil and organics too, right? I am pretty sure that is a valid argument, and its a good one."<br /><br />Those were the days. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[8320]

r u sure..can't u provide a link...so dat i cud know it better!

 

[3488]

Can you please 8320 use real words & sentences?<br /><br />Thank You. <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

8320: I did provide a link when I referred to this thread called "Is there Oil on Mars?"<br /><br />Jon - thanks for the details. I like reading your posts first thing in the morning, it feels like I'm in school again! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[brellis]

<font color="yellow">it feels like I'm in school again!</font><br /><br />Now, since school's out, I'm going to the beach! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Thank you!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's made my morning (heavy frost today, the cat seems to think it's my fault).<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Jon,<br /><br />Thank you for these convincing arguments.<br />A frustration that those articles from space.com have not been compensated by other articles!<br /><br />For Titan, this is true that polystyrene is mentionned as an assumption, and tholins as "precursors to plastics". The point is that Huygens could not detect heavy molecules because it lacked something to make them evaporate (and enter inside the detectors). Now identified as a must for next mission to Titan.<br /><br />This being said, can't we count on the fact that heavy hydrocarbons (tar-like, tholins,...)are quite common in Outer Solar System? (*)<br />And so that some of them made their way to the inner planets htrough cometary bombardment?<br /><br />(*) Kerogen is detected on TNOs... (not an internet source!)<br /><br />Regards.

 

[dragon04]

To go to the heart of the issue, there are far less extravagant ways to "warm Mars up" that don't rely on unconfirmed theory and conjecture.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Yep, people have used the word "kerogen" to describe the complex organic matter of indeterminate structure detected on some TNOs (and other places too). I don't like this, for the same reason as I don't like the word "tar". These are specific words that mean very specific substances with specific origins. They are very loaded terms. "Tar-like", "tarry", and "kerogen-like" is probably OK in a general sense, but it would be better to use more specific terms and less confusing terms like "tholin". IMHO of course!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>