A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Re: Margin of error.... You tell me.... It's your experiment. You've a Polysci degree among others, right? I'm sure you can determine a percentage that we can both agree on. So offer up a value. Let's negotiate. As a matter of fact, offer up RCH's "margin for error." Let's discuss that. Is there too much detail there for you? What's the problem? Either images will do, imo, but I think the one I posted has more data in it, no? Is there to much detail for you in the seaming of the MOC images Zen led us to on Laney's site? It depends on what you consider the presence, or lack of, data. My experiment? I suppose. But if I'm going to take the time to do it, then your "side" is going to have to offer - at the very least - the starting points for the geometry on the "pyramid." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 31, 2005

Uh,,,, I did.... In the post I'm responding to now..... Keep in mind that the RCH's original work on the Geometry of Cydonia was done on actual photographic prints,,,, You're doing your experiment on unorthorectified images. I'd say 5-7%? I'm really not too sure though.... open for discussion. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'll have to do some digging to see if I can come up w/ RCH's margin of error. I know I've read it, just got to find it. Zen, a little help, maybe?

telfrow · May 31, 2005

As Hoagland points out in The Monuments of Mars, the margin of error in measuring these angles is rather large, perhaps as much as 3 degrees. From Greenberg's site, so I'm sure you'll want to double check it. So a 60 degree angle can be off 1.8 degrees (+/-)...a 120 degree angle (+/-) 3.6 degrees....85.3 degree angle (+/- 2.559) and so on. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Max, remember this? - Second, they didn't use erosion models at all. Do you want to try again? Hint.... MesoAmerican.... So why doesn't the shape of the "extrapolated" "pyramid" look like this? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

And we don't see the same geometry here? Just curious.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · May 31, 2005

Great questions, Telfrow... What do you think?

najab · May 31, 2005

I believe telfrow (and others) are still waiting for you to identify the anchor points...

maxtheknife · May 31, 2005

Try to find the layout w/ angle measurements for Teotihuacan, Telfrow.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Edit: I believe I posted what appears to be a stepped pyramid somewhere in Civ on Mars Part 1 or 2..... Naj,,,, why don't YOU suggest the anchor points? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

telfrow · May 31, 2005

You going to quote Johnson on me Max? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · May 31, 2005

>Naj,,,, why don't YOU suggest the anchor points?Because I don't believe there are any 'anchor points' to be identified. You ascribe to the theory that the 'pyramid' is artificial, and that there are anchor points, so you should be the one to identify them.

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Here you go Max. Matches perfectly. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Agreed. Personally, I'm not going to spend the time required to do it and then have Max and Zen sit on the side lines, taking pot shots at the locations of the anchor points. I can hear it now: "Well no wonder it's off - you started in the wrong spot with that anchor point...well, that one's off too...and so's that one..." No thanks. If Max or Zen can't provide the precise anchor locations so we can have a common starting point for the discussion/experiment/investigation, then forget it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

mental_avenger · May 31, 2005

I think the image I posted is the best and easiest to work with..... Is there too much detail there for you? What's the problem? Either images will do, imo, but I think the one I posted has more data in it, no? No. Both of telfrow’s images higher resolution, so there is more data. His first image is a lot sharper and has more detail The image you posted is physically larger on the screen, but lower res. BTW, why do you insist on posting images that are too wide for the standard screen width? At 876 pixels wide, the image pushes the screen and requires scrolling to read the messages. Is it that you don’t know how to post a limited width image on SDC? It makes more sense to post a smaller (600-650 pixel wide) image on the board for reference and then post a link to the high resolution version of the same image. No one would want to work with the <100k image that SDC limits us to. Any serious work would have to be done with the higher resolution version anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Hey, I answered you. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> And I'd still like to talk about the evolutionary track. It's is sad though. Your thread has been hijacked. Completely. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

mental_avenger · May 31, 2005

Without the magnetosphere, the solar wind strips an atmosphere away very quiclkly and the ozone layer will collapse, perhaps catastrophically, leaving Mars unshielded to ultraviolet, etc. Talk about unsupported assumptions……. There is no proof that Mars ever had a significant magnetic field to begin with. There is no proof that Mars ever had a significant atmosphere. There is no evidence that Mars even had an ozone layer. Before you begin to make assumptions about planetary features, you must first prove they actually existed to begin with. BTW, I also answered all six of your “questions”. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

zenonmars · May 31, 2005

telfrow, "Personally, I'm not going to spend the time required to do it and then have Max and Zen sit on the side lines, taking pot shots at the locations of the anchor points" STOP THE PRESSES!!! I really hate to do this to you guys, but I am having a severe change of heart... Now don't get me wrong, I still think the Cydonian plain contains the ruins of an ancient Martian civilization. I still think Depietro, Molinaare, Hoagland, et al are correct about the tetrahedral geometry encoded in the angles of the D&M, and replicated between the annomalous objects strewn across Cydonia. I also believe stuff you guys would probably have major problems with, such as the "global grid math" of Carl Munck, and the re-integrating work of David Hancock. But today's problem is this: I have just been exposed to a new interpretation of the D&M. It so far seems NOT to contradict Hoagland's tetrahedral geometry, but may require some "re-mapping" on the part of the present players here. Forgive me. His name is Bob Wonderland, and here is his website: http://www.bob-wonderland.supanet.com/geometry_4.htm Bob posted his newest D&M interpretations this week on the Enterprise mission boards. His "lines" acknowledge the "platform" on which the D&M sits, but "sees" the shape in another, most unusual manner: UPSIDE DOWN!!! Let me digest this stuff for a while. We'll get to this "margin of error" thing once I am convinced of the veracity of Bob's interpretation. In other words: Your honor? The defence asks for a brief recess, to evaluate some new evidence that we have just uncovered!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

The link doesn't work. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · May 31, 2005

The link you posted was bad. I'm also curious what transformation he did to derive that image, it appears to be more than a simple rotation.

telfrow · May 31, 2005

I'd say so too... Here's the "upside down" seamed MOC image from Laney (at least two thirds of it... ) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · May 31, 2005

I rotated telfrow's image to get the same orientation, the left side doesn't look nearly as well defined as in your image.

telfrow · May 31, 2005

And here's another version (full), rotated: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 31, 2005

Sorry najaB...I think we posted the same image. You can delete mine if you like. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · May 31, 2005

Nah, I'll leave it. It gives Zen and Max a choice of images to ignore. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

zenonmars · May 31, 2005

colin098, Thank-you for starting this post. The very thought of "hijacking a thread" irritates me, and if your original premise of "could Mars have an intelligent civilization, one billion years ago? Or 200 million years ago?"has been extrapolated to the "Cydonia" mess, and/or expanded to this Hatfield vs McCoys of this Artificiality harangue, I wish to personally apologise. In my opinion, the water=life argument is now taken for granted. And the notion (presuming Life always grows to intelligence) that a civilization may have once occupied the Red Planet is, for me, not even a stretch of the imagination. It therefore leads us to the most important, and only relevant question for us to answer: HOW and WHEN did Mars DIE? The apparent artifacts at Cydonia lend an emotional passion to these musings. I am truely sorry if the fallout from those passions have brushed close to "halucination". But just like a strong drug, the extraordinary notion of Life itself transports me to a sort of Enrapture. And although it is not my religion, the notion of Mankind's connection to the Dream of Mars makes my life a wonderous, delicious journey. Once again, thanks for sparking the flame. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

najab · May 31, 2005

>In my opinion, the water=life argument is now taken for granted.With respect, the argument is that life = water - where ever on Earth there is life, there is a source of liquid water. The reverse is NOT true.>And the notion (presuming Life always grows to intelligence)...Again, this is nothing more than pure conjecture, dressed up as science. There have been, in the time that life has existed on Earth, in excess of 100 million different species of living organisms. In that time, exactly one has developed the level of intelligence required to build monuments of the size claimed to exist on Mars. And that species only appeared in the last million years or so of a 3-4 billion year evolutionary process. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that life grows to intelligence only exceedingly rarely.

A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

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