A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 3)

telfrow · May 28, 2005

After that last post, Zen, it seems appropriate to repost a portion of Packet's post: Time after time you have raised questions. Repeatedly even. Each and every time, several posters or the same poster has responded diligently with an answer. In many cases, the answers are shown with referrences and verified arguments. Almost without deviation or hesitancy, the typical RCH fan will totally ignore the answer to their previous question and do their best to submit another "mysterious" question. Very astute, Packet. Very astute. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · May 28, 2005

ZEN RESPONDS TO ALL QUESTIONS_4 Thanks, Avenger. I appreciate your honesty about the # estimates, and I also have no real idea about these percentages. You said, " NASA’s mission is to map the entire surface of the planet. Yes that is ONE of NASA's missions. It also runs (ran) a shuttle program, a space station, a series of Mars landers doing geology, educational television, a BIG ass space telescope, ya know, the works! "Now, the real question is: why doesn’t NASA divert their limited resources from their mandated purpose, which is not nearly complete, and respond to the wishes of the .00003 of the population who think there is something there that no one else sees?" Well, first of all, I never ever want to hear about budgets ever again. (Wishful thinking, I know!) Just please click on this: (just for 30 seconds) http://costofwar.com/ The Coast-to-Coast AM radio show (ya know, the old 'Art Bell' show?) is the largest rated overnight syndicated talk show in America (you'll have to take my word for that, or check the ratings on your own). On any given evening, they estimate over a million listeners are tuned in. Now realise that the nighthawks are a SLIM percentage of American citizens. And then realise that of that radio show audience, only a portion of those folks become proactive on any given issue the following morning. So imagine my surprise when Hoagland encouraged the listening audience to do so, that the offices of Arizona Senator John McCain reported to have recieved in excess of 50,000 faxes and emails! Obviously, there are tens thousands more folks, who never got around to faxing McCain (possibly hundreds of thousands of Americans, if you include 1st shifters who have never even heard about Cydonia) who are deeply curious to have NASA give them <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 28, 2005

Perhaps, Yev. Dipietro and Molennare (forgive me if I misspell their names) showed that the internal geometry of the D&M, that is to say the angles of the bisected D&M, as offset from true north, replicated the internal geometry of a double circumscribed tetrahedron. I will not argue this, as I am not a mathametician. It appears that all of those angles, the tangients and cosigns of which reduce to the e/pi ratios that appear (to Hoagland et al) to be replicated over and over between the OTHER annomalous objects surrounding the Face. I started the ball rolling and posted photos for everyone to work from. You're saying you won't even try to make the connections? Defend the "geometry" of Cydonia? Come on, Zen. As Max would say: Draw the lines! Prove it! Lolol.....that's blackmail!!! Yes, I suppose it is...but you can always crop and compress the photo yourself, you know. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · May 28, 2005

tel, .lol.you are a DATA weasle!!! LOL............. No I cannot crop that image, I am almost computer illiterate. But I have friends who can!!! When Max gets back from holiday, we'll let him draw the lines

telfrow · May 28, 2005

you are a DATA weasle!!! Gee, thanks. (I think) Most historians, amatuer or professional, are "data weasles." I'd think someone as passionate about conspiracies, NASA cover ups, artificiality, etc., would be a "data weasle" as well. Maybe the fact I am and you're not explains our positions on the issues. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

JonClarke · May 28, 2005

Data weasels of the world unite! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

telfrow · May 28, 2005

I am only asking for data as specific and clear as those google-satellite-zoom-in-thingies, so I can look at the "lawn furniture" on Mars. Very funny Zen. http://www.keithlaney.com/images/R11-02437D+Mentrancexway.jpg As if you didn't already know it was there. (It's on the front page, for crying out loud.) Post the thing yourself. And you wonder why we get tired of the games...<img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

mental_avenger · May 28, 2005

Yes that is ONE of NASA's missions I was referring to NASA’s orbital imaging mission, of course. But I think you already knew that. So imagine my surprise when Hoagland encouraged the listening audience to do so, that the offices of Arizona Senator John McCain reported to have recieved in excess of 50,000 faxes and emails! That is a rather meaningless “statistic”, because it does not say what the emails were addressing or how many “different” people sent them. Without even listening to the show, I can be virtually certain that the phrasing Hogland used was designed specifically to generate a non-representative response. I’d like to take a moment to address the difference between an unbiased poll, such as the one I posted above, and a “loaded” poll, in order to illustrate my point. The poll you posted here began with the question “Do you see a face here”, preloading the question in anticipation of a specific answer. Had the 3D Perspective image been shown, and the question was “what does this look like?”, WITHOUT any prepping (that is no mention that it was on Mars, that there was a controversy, or ANY other information that would clue the respondents about the subject or intent of the poll), the response would have been vastly different. Now, as to the questions about NASA (or the government) withholding information, I would be willing to bet that if a totally fictitious place was used in place of “Mars” or “Cydonia”, the results would be virtually the same. Create a poll asking if the respondents think that the government is hiding information about Cresdanta from the public, especially after prepping the respondents with hints about government conspiracy and dishonesty in general, there is no doubt in my <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

telfrow · May 28, 2005

The Axis of Data Weasels... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

JonClarke · May 28, 2005

Lies, damned lies and statistics, as Mark Twain said. The first question is definitely loaded, the oldest trick in the book when you want a poll to give a desired result (and a hard one to avoid accidently sometimes). Plus in any oll you need to know who the polled sample is representitive of (all internet uses, obviously, but who else are they), whether multiple votes were allowed (vote early, vote often), etc. What I find interesting about that poll, despite it's loaded and unrepresentitive nature, is that the majority of people (two thirds) still don't think the face is artificial. A significant majority also don't believe in a cover up. This is despite a hard sell campaign by Hoagland and his henchmen that this is the case, and the resonances this has with all the other conspiracy mongers out there (I love the way that Hoagland brings in UFOS, Atlantis, Apollo conspiracy nuts, Masonites in connection with his Mars ideas - it greatly increases the receptive audience). Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

zenonmars · May 28, 2005

lolol.....Jon! "Data weasels of the world unite!" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mental_avenger · May 29, 2005

I think the important point here is that far fewer people are even aware of the controversy than the Three Faceketeers want everyone (including NASA) to believe. In fact, their entire case rests on their claim that a sufficient number of people want NASA to drop what they are doing, waste precious fuel, and re-image the formations on Cydonia (amongst other locations). It is hard to imagine how further imaging with the same limited equipment can produce any results that will change anything. Here’s something else to think about. If NASA knuckles under to the requests to go back to Cydonia, they would set a precedent, and leave themselves wide open to requests to re-image perhaps hundreds of other sites on Mars, simply because someone thinks they saw something anomalous. Between the “face”, “triangles”, “tubes”, “worms”, “trees”, etc., NASA would have to forget about their main missions. (on Mars) (from orbit) (with current spacecraft). Note that of the 725.0 kg launch weight of the 2001 Odyssey spacecraft, 348.7 kg of that was hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide fuel. Still, there is a finite amount, and there can be no more supplied. Once that is gone, the spacecraft can no longer maneuver at all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

JonClarke · May 29, 2005

I agree and besides, orbotal mechanics dictates that sooner or later a spacecraft will fly over the site and an image can be collected. There is no need to make it a priority. But the question also has to be asked, how much evidence is sufficient for some people? It was possible, from the Viking image to say there was a definite, though very small, chance that the feature might have been artifical. Carlotto listed predictions of what would be expected if it were. None have proved correct with higher resolution MOC and THEMIS imagery. There is no reason to supect that MRO or ME imagery, when available will be different. The fact that the Cydonia Clan still claims it is artificial shows that they are not evidenced based, but either blindly following the authority of Hoagland or simply not admiting they were wrong. I would not oject as such to even landing a probe at Cydonia, but for two reasons. There are many more interesting places to land and it would not satisfy the Cydonia Clan. Given their response to MOC and THEMIS they will always see artificiality in natural features, or claim cover up and conspiracy by the agencies that supply the images (a case of biting the hand that feeds you if there ever was). Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

silylene old · May 29, 2005

The poll you posted here began with the question “Do you see a face here”, preloading the question in anticipation of a specific answer. Had the 3D Perspective image been shown, and the question was “what does this look like?”, WITHOUT any prepping (that is no mention that it was on Mars, that there was a controversy, or ANY other information that would clue the respondents about the subject or intent of the poll), the response would have been vastly different. the poll question I want to see is: Do you see butt-cheek imprints here?/b> I bet a majority of people would answer "yes" ! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

My thanks to Zen for his little “joke” last night. It led me to the MOC images of the “pyramid.” The attached image contains crops of the “pyramid” from MOC images R0600469 and R0600437. (Brightness and contrast was adjusted slightly on both photos.) The seaming isn’t perfect, but it’s pretty close. Unfortunately, the file had to be optimized to meet the posting limits, but if you examine the images in their original context the detail is stunning – and leaves no doubt the structure is natural. Note: E2100188 was not used - the area of the pyramid is duplicated in R0600469; R0700422 was not used – I haven’t been able to properly line it up with R0600437. I’m still working on it. All the MOC images can be found at: http://www.keithlaney.com/ Source images for the MOC photos used can be found at: http://www.keithlaney.com/images/R0600469.jpg http://www.keithlaney.com/images/R1102437.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · May 29, 2005

telfrow, If we could attach music files to these posts, I would include frank Zappa's Weasels Ripped My Flesh! ... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> You said, "if you examine the images in their original context the detail is stunning – and leaves no doubt the structure is natural." And you know, do you, what a GIANT pyramid archology would look like after tumultuous cataclysms, like mega-tsunamies raging over continents, possibly mega quakes, winds in excess of 900 miles per hour, the sucking of most atmosphere and water off into space, and the millions of years of macro and micro meteor bombardment, followed by hundreds of centuries of wind and dust storms? And you are using what terrestrial event as your model? I cannot debate the geometry of Cydonia, as per DiPietro, Molinarre, Carlotto, and Hoagland, as I do not have a grounding in post graduate mathematics. I can however tell you that the enlarged image of the D&M corner looks like archways, to me. But if I am asked to draw lines, I prefer the ones which include the "platform", as it "feels right" given our newest, best data: ""Either these features on Mars are natural and this investigation is a complete waste of time, or they are artificial and this is one of the most important discoveries of our entire existence on Earth. If they are artificial it is imperative that we figure them out, because they 'do not belong there.' Their presence may be trying very hard to tell us something extraordinary." -Richard Hoagland 1987 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

....would look like after tumultuous cataclysms, like mega-tsunamies raging over continents, possibly mega quakes, winds in excess of 900 miles per hour, the sucking of most atmosphere and water off into space, and the millions of years of macro and micro meteor bombardment, followed by hundreds of centuries of wind and dust storms? "Millions of years?" I thought Carlotto, et. al., estimated it's age at 25,000 years. And I thought RCH estimated 200,000. And now you contend millions? You guys (i.e., "your side") get together and figure out how old you think the thing is. Then get back to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

I'm not that good with PhotoShop. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think you'd have a mountain. There doesn't appear to be a lot of slumping and collpase from 8:00 to 10:00. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · May 29, 2005

Avenger, Happy Memorial Day to ya. MA: " Between the “face”, “triangles”, “tubes”, “worms”, “trees”, etc., NASA would have to forget about their main missions. (on Mars) (from orbit) (with current spacecraft)." You forgot saucer, fort, pyramids, sphynx, archologies, God knows what else ..........(but not a dolphin...that's stupid!...lol) OK, look. Mapping Mars IS important. Everyone here keeps saying "Gosh, if NASA did find evidence of ancient life on Mars, they would shout it from the tops of Capitol Hill. Golly, that sure would get em some funding." Here is my point. The mapping doesn't need to be done by, say, next week. My guess is this mapping mission will be replicated again and again over the next hundred years until every square inch of the planet is imaged by better and better hardware. So..... IF NASA suddenly imaged a distinct artifact.I mean something so obvious that even all SDC members agreed that it was, in fact, an artifact, would ANYONE mind if NASA postponed the ongoing and continuous mapping mission to relish in a most amazing discovery? "It is hard to imagine how further imaging with the same limited equipment can produce any results that will change anything." And that is what I've been saying all along. We need MUCH more and better data: http://costofwar.com/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

Either these features on Mars are natural and this investigation is a complete waste of time, or they are artificial and this is one of the most important discoveries of our entire existence on Earth. You really want our opinion on that one Zen? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

I wasn't including you in that reference, Colin98. I think you know what I meant. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · May 29, 2005

Well, thanks for the photo Zen. Now, explain where the heck the feature that is used to create the line at 1:00 is...and why the ridge line at 4:00 isn't used. Because it means the figure isn't a pentagon? And that it doesn't relate to the surrounding features? Sure, you say you can't argue the math, but you can use your eyes and draw straight lines. Why not try doing something on your own? Edit: That should read 2:00, not 1:00. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

JonClarke · May 29, 2005

Interesting implictation by Zen that features are worth investigation only if they are artificial. Perhaps that perception lies at the heart of much of the Cydonia clan mentality. Why would anybody spend 100's of millions of $$$$ to look at rocks? Ergo, they are not looking at rocks, therefore let's try and find what they are REALLY looking at. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

maxtheknife · May 29, 2005

I'm still on vacation, so I'm not even thinking about dealing w/ Jon's irritating post right now....but the lines you desire at 1:00 are EXTRAPOLATED. It's called SCIENCE: Part of the definition includes: Experimental Investigation! http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science Pseudoscientists.... the lot of ya. I'm Maxin' and relaxin'.... shot 79 w/ 2 birdies yesterday <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Not so good today <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well, there's still tomorrow <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Zen, don't let them take up you're whole weekend, bro! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

telfrow · May 29, 2005

...but the lines you desire at 1:00 are EXTRAPOLATED. It's called SCIENCE: Part of the definition includes: Experimental Investigation! <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

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