Air generator(s) for Mars?

[nexium]

How does Jatslo propose to convert carbon dioxide to energy and oxygen? Details please. Neil

 

[jatslo]

nexium asked, "<font color="yellow">How does Jatslo propose to convert carbon dioxide to energy and oxygen?</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">It is something to do with ARGON, or the government. I'll try and find it again. co2 is broken down as a byproduct of some other process, and then the Co2 in broke down again; something to do with manufacturing hydrogen.</font>"

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">Whoops! that is created carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide created by this reforming process is used to make additional hydrogen as it passes through a second-stage catalyst and a cartridge absorbs sulfur. Sorry.</font>"<br /><br />Argonne National Laboratory said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FF00" size="3">Several major manufacturers have developed hydrogen-powered fuel cell systems for powering vehicles and homes, but hydrogen is not yet convenient to use as a fuel. Argonne National Laboratory has developed a device that can serve as a transition technology until hydrogen is readily available. Argonne's compact, efficient fuel processing technology is "fuel flexible," meaning it can "reform" many conventional hydrocarbon fuels, such as gasoline, methanol, and natural gas, into a hydrogen-rich gas for use in fuel cells. Argonne's fuel processor is an inexpensive, easy-to-manufacture device that reforms conventional fuels into hydrogen using a process similar to that used in today's automotive catalytic converters. Vaporized fuel (1) is mixed with steam and air and sent through a catalyst-packed cylinder. The first-stage catalyst (2) releases hydrogen to feed the fuel cell. Carbon monoxide created by this reforming process is used to make additional hydrogen as it passes through a second-stage catalyst (3) and a cartridge absorbs sulfur (4) ( REF#4165484864 ).</font>"<br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">This next one processes carbon dioxide or traps it, I am not sure. My brain hurts. Oh, yeah, that is the one: Co2 decomposes at very high temperatures into carbon and oxygen.</font>"<br /><br />Argonne National Laboratory said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FF00" size="3">CO2 recovery more economical and less energy intensive. These are: (a) combustion of fuels in O2 with CO2 recycle, yielding a m</font>

 

[mrmorris]

Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> (to camera) Hello. (he walks in followed by Superintendent Parrot and goes to desk) Mr Milton? You are sole proprietor and owner of the Whizzo Chocolate Company? </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> I am. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> Superintendent Parrot and I are from the hygiene squad. We want to have a word with you about your box of chocolates entified The Whizzo Quality Assortment. </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> Ah, yes. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> (producing box of chocolates) If I may begin at the beginning. First there is the cherry fondue. This is extremely nasty, but we can't prosecute you for that. </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> Agreed. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> Next we have number four, 'crunchy frog'. </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> Ah, yes. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> Am I right in thinking there's a real frog in here? </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> Yes. A little one. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> What sort of frog? </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> A dead frog. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> Is it cooked? </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> No. </font><br /><br />Inspector Praline said,<font color="orange"> What, a raw frog? </font><br /><br />Milton said,<font color="purple"> We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose. </font>

 

[nexium]

In my humble opinion neither of those Argonne National Laboratory clips infer that the carbon or the oxygen is removed from the carbon dioxide. I agree, however, that carbon dioxide is decomposed at very high temperature = 5000 degrees c? I presume lots of cold helium or argon or neon gas blown into the plasma would condense out the carbon as smoke. The result might be 90% inert gases 3% free oxygen, 1% soot in the hepafilter, 3% carbon monoxide and 3% carbon dioxide ( much of the smoke would oxidize to carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide )<br />All materials are plasma at 5000 degrees c so technics of fusion plants such as magnetic containment would be necessary at incredible energy cost. Neil

 

[jatslo]

nexium said, "<font color="yellow">In my humble opinion neither of those Argonne National Laboratory clips infer that the carbon or the oxygen is removed from the carbon dioxide. I agree, however, that carbon dioxide is decomposed at very high temperature = 5000 degrees c? I presume lots of cold helium or argon or neon gas blown into the plasma would condense out the carbon as smoke. The result might be 90% inert gases 3% free oxygen, 1% soot in the hepafilter, 3% carbon monoxide and 3% carbon dioxide ( much of the smoke would oxidize to carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide ) <br />All materials are plasma at 5000 degrees c so techniques of fusion plants such as magnetic containment would be necessary at incredible energy cost.</font> <br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">I provided two converter like apparatuses that parse Carbon Dioxide and Monoxide. Mars is 95% Carbon Dioxide. If you are inferring that we build these contraptions to work parallel to the workforce, that would be ill advised. These converters would need to be statically placed on Mars well before our workforces arrived. We need reservoirs of oxygen, hydrogen, and water to last the mission, so that we do not have to pack it in.<br /><br />You are right, with respect to impurities, and that is why I was trying to analyze atmosphere. The resources involved are direct byproducts of atmosphere comparative analysis. What does "<font color="yellow">The result might be 90% inert gases 3% free oxygen, 1% soot in the hepafilter, 3% carbon monoxide and 3% carbon dioxide</font> mean? Does this mean that we have to run the mixture through a filter and magnetic apparatus to further filter the gases? Yes. Carbon monoxide can be converted to hydrogen, and the hydrogen can be converted to water. Oxygen is good, but what does all the percentages mean? How long will it take to store oxygen, hydrogen, and water? The soot can be filtered easily. The carbon c</font>

 

[chriscdc]

Do you realise that the amount of energy available in the form of ATP is an order of magnitude lower during hibernation than in normal sleep. During hibernation the heart beats normally around ten times slower than normal sleep. You can see that this would decrease the amount of oxygen available to the tissues. <br /><br />If you make the person do any work during the day, then there will be damage. Putting them in hibernation instead of normal sleep will not allow them to repair anywhere near as much damage over the same period of time. <br />Hibernation does do repair, but it does repair in proportion to the cellular damage caused during hibernation. Sleep on the other hand does repair in proportion to damage caused while asleep and the time spent awake.<br /><br />Thus Hibernation would be good for long space trips, but no use on the surface of mars.

 

[nexium]

Hi Jatslo: I was inferring that neither you nor I know a practical way to make anything practical (other than photosynthesis) out of carbon dioxide on Mars. The method, I suggested is untested. At best it would require huge amounts of energy and produce a mixture of gases that would take more energy to separate into useful combinations. Charcoal makes a good filter. To my knowledge soot does not make a good filter. The soot would contain some bucky balls, possibly some CNT that might be useful. Unless someone has a method unknow to you and I, carbon dioxide is not a useful commodity on Mars, except in tiny amounts. Carbon monoxide is very poisonous. I don't think anyone has identified a good way to generate air on Mars. We may have to compromise on a poor way such as electrolysis of water. Neil

 

[jatslo]

nexium said, "<font color="yellow">photosynthesis</font>"<br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">Photosynthesis is a good topic, and I am glad you brought it up. I can visualize a biosphere on Mars; however, the means by which we achieve it is very cumbersome and time consuming. We are working a <font color="white"><i><b>“25-Year Deadline"</b></i></font> right?</font>"<br />

 

[jatslo]

nexium said, "<font color="yellow">Charcoal makes a good filter. To my knowledge soot does not make a good filter</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF" size="3">I didn't say soot; I said carbon; not hydrocarbon; just carbon. Coal, or charcoal is carbon, as in hydrocarbon. Carbon is a great aqua filter. Carbon Monoxide is a byproduct of burning petroleum, e.g., ( Methane, Natural Gas, Oil, Coal, etc. ), and I am not sure where the carbon monoxide on Mars is. Water-ice is important, that is for sure. The frozen carbon dioxide at the poles might be processible; however, it seems easier to convert the CO2 to O2 and scrap the carbon.</font>"

 

[chriscdc]

You could use photosynthesis easily if you have tanks of fast growing micro-organisms. They will grow, and thus remove carbon, faster than any surface plant.<br />They could form an important part of the recycle vacility as well.<br /><br />If there was some way to make plastic from the organisms, you could make the the 'farms' self growing. You only need to add thermal power in order to stop the system freezing.<br />Also the water for the tanks could be placed around habitat module, whilst in space, to provide protection.

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF">I have not heard of anything other than biosphere on the subject. Do you have a particular plant on your mind? Sounds like plankton type, because you are referencing aquatics.</font>"

 

[nexium]

We can perhaps build a checkerboard group of cubicals about 3 meters on an edge with airlocks connecting them to each other. Each cubical ceiling is a transparent fresnel lens that gathers sunlight from a wide angle and projects it to about 3 square meters at the center of the room. This multiplies the sun light by three minus the transmission losses in the thick lense and loss when the sun is at a low angle instead of overhead. Hopefully this provides enough light at the center of each room for the plants/algae to thrive. The rest of the room has pleasent indirect lighting which is scattered from the plants. The rest of each room can be used for almost any purpose. The airlocks protect adjacent rooms if a transparent ceiling fails. Occupants of a failed room may be able to get in an air lock before they passout from decreasing air pressure. This would work well close to the equator, for about two weeks out of each 28 day period, but steerable mirrors may be the only way to get adequite light to plants and algae near the poles.<br />If we built the Sandia type power tower we will typically have a mirror or two which can not heat the working fluid efficiently, but will sometimes be favorable for providing light for plants and algae. Grow lights will be needed when little or no sunlight reachs the plants. Neil

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF">Let's think this out logically: In terms of cellular processes; we are basically looking at scrap/replace, repair, upgrade, and stop, in which sleep and/or hibernation are involved. Furthermore, sleep and hibernation effect the circulatory system in the body, whereas both sleep and hibernation can be induced naturally or artificially.</font>"<br /><br /><b>Comparative Analysis One:</b><br /><br />The evidence said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FF00">During sleep the body temperature, blood pressure, rate of breathing, and heartbeat decrease ( REF#1544165158 ). Compared to hibernation; hibernation states that all body activities are reduced to a minimum: there may be as few as one or two heartbeats a minute ( REF#15648191489911 ).</font>"<br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF">Can we agree that body temperature, blood pressure, rate of breathing, and heartbeat are comparable to sleep and hibernation: Yes, No, or Abstain?</font>"<br /><br /><b>Comparative Analysis Two:</b><br /><br />The evidence said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FF00"> In humans, sleep occurs in cyclical patterns; in each cycle of 1 1/2 to 2 hr, the sleeper moves through four stages of sleep, from Stage 1 to Stage 4, and back again to Stage 1 ( REF#1544165158 ). Compared to hibernation; hibernation states some animals spend cold periods asleep in their burrows; however, they may emerge on warm days ( REF#15648191489911 ).</font>"<br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font face="verdana" color="#99FFFF">I have reason to believe that sleep and hibernation are the same thing, and I think the sleeper moves from various stages, whereas hibernation has deeper implica</font>

 

[chriscdc]

That would be alot of equipment to take to mars. It would also be difficult to scale up.<br /><br />What I was thinking of was long transparent tubes, forming a loop with the craft at 1 point. You could have mylar sheets that would concentrate the light onto the the tube. The mylar could also have heating elements incorporated into the sheet to keep the tube warm. If you have a nuclear power module, then you can use the excess heat.<br /><br />You could rotate the ring, putting waste and organisms in at one end and then harvesting the organisms at the end. Using a small tube you could add habitat atmosphere (and added martian CO2) to the solution and then take out scrubbed atmosphere.

 

[jatslo]

<font face="”verdana”">I heard recently that the mission to Mars will involve 500-days on Mars alone, and not the 365-days, as I previously speculated, so any air generation apparatus will need to produce enough resources to support this mission. I cannot rule out the possibilities of biosphere technology utilization. The best of both worlds might come to play, and I expect major announcements in this regard to start surfacing sometime soon.</font>