Antimatter mystery solved

michaelmozina · Jan 15, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The antimatter is due to a collection of positrons, not anti-Al26. <hr /></blockquote> That's highly unlikely IMO due to the nature of the ISM and the fact that positrons wouldn't be inclined to simply 'hang out" in the ISM, rather they'd interact with anything they met. The would tend to react with something in the vicinity in pretty short order. Al26 however could remain "stable" in the ISM and then eventually emit a positron which would then react with something in the ISM. Al26 is a suitable long term storage container for positrons, but raw positrons are going to react with something pretty quickly once they are on their own in the ISM. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />There is only one isotope that is Al26; there are other isotopes of Al. <hr /></blockquote> How many of these isotopes emit positrons when they decay? From the paper <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />"One certain source of positrons in the disk of the Galaxy is the radioisotope 26Al. It decays with a lifetime of Ï„ âˆ¼ 106 yr with emission of a 1809 keV gamma-ray photon; âˆ¼ 85% of the decays are also accompanied by the emission of a positron. "<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />X-ray binaries are generally where one star is a neutron star and the other is a normal star whose outer shell is being tidally stripped off and accreted upon the neutron star to make the x-rays.<hr /></blockquote> Well, that may be true, but then all stars emit x-rays already. We're talking about a different "volume" of x-rays perhaps when you start talking about massive stars, but all stars emit x-rays, presumably binary ones too. Coincidently those gamma signatures we see from our own sun are always (and I mean always) associated with x-rays inside those same coronal loops that we see in those Rhessi/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 15, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />You did not read my posts very carefully.<hr /></blockquote> My apologies. I was answering messages between tech calls at work and obviously I missed some key points related to your beliefs about the frequency of binary stars in the core. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />First, the .511 MeV signal is due to positron-electron destruction. Any heavier antimatter would leave a larger MeV signal.<hr /></blockquote> We both seem to agree on that point. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Th extension of the cloud is due to "canned" positrons within the Al26. These Al26 ions are accelerated out via jetting. <hr /></blockquote> That particular concept if fine by me, although it's not clear why this particular elements would be so abundant, and only abundant in the core. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Otherwise the nova material would reamain close to the system where it was made and would appear as a sharp point source rather than diffuse.<hr /></blockquote> Jets would seem to require that the Al26 cloud is somewhat directional wouldn't it? <blockquote>In reply to:<hr /> If there were any additional positrons in the event that were jetted, they also will be accelerated to relativistic speeds away form the neutron star.<hr /></blockquote> I don't think they'd get even a foot before interacting with something. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Yes, when they meet an electron they will destroy. You seem to suggest that positrons will destroy protons or nucleons. Do you have a reference for this?<hr /></blockquote> I was thinking more in terms of interacting with electrons around hydrogen atoms, and helium atoms, and lighter elements than Al26, not so much in terms of them interacting proto <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 16, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Sure, and I'm quite certain that there are AL26 isotopes out there, and 1.81MeV signals coming from that direction, and evidently the whole galactic plane as well too.<hr /></blockquote> Ah, this is what you meant by "Al26 isotopes". I just meant that there are in fact Al26 atoms present in the ISM, I didn't mean to suggest that there were multiple Al26 isotopes. Like I said, I wrote this stuff during a hectic day at work, and I did use a lot of sloppy verbiage. My bad. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

richalex · Jan 16, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr /><blockquote>In reply to:<hr />If there were any additional positrons in the event that were jetted, they also will be accelerated to relativistic speeds away form the neutron star.<hr /></blockquote> I don't think they'd get even a foot before interacting with something.<hr /></blockquote> How could that be? We have antimatter in our own magnetosphere, and so do all the other planets with a magnetosphere. What is more, there is talk of storing antimatter in a magnetic field located around the outside of spacecraft, which would also help provide radiation shielding.

michaelmozina · Jan 16, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />How could that be? We have antimatter in our own magnetosphere, and so do all the other planets with a magnetosphere. <hr /></blockquote> Your source please..... Was this real antimatter that someone actually harvested, or are you just observing gamma rays from there? <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />What is more, there is talk of storing antimatter in a magnetic field located around the outside of spacecraft, which would also help provide radiation shielding.<hr /></blockquote> As far as I know there is no "stored" quantity of any significant amount of antimatter anywhere on earth. I somehow doubt that would be a good shield mechanism since it would generate lots of gamma rays and that wouldn't be good for human tissue. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 16, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Regarding the diffuse cloud versus beamed particles, one must remember that the reason we see millisecond pulsars is because the poles can rotate rapidly. These can spew material from both poles out far into space over a large solid angle which can then merge to give the cloud. For example Earth's magnetic pole does not align with the rotation axis. Uranus is quite severe in this respect in that the offset is about 60 degrees. The point is that while the source is directional from the magnetic poles, these poles can move quite rapidly and compounded to this is the movement of the two stars in the binary system around their mutual barycenter which adds to the further smearing into a cloud.<hr /></blockquote> I don't know. From a skeptics perspective, it sounds like you want to have you cake (jets) and eat it too (clouds). I can understand how you might get angular jets from a spinning pulsar, but not very diffuse clouds. It seems like you need "jets" to do the dirty work and separate particles from one another, and then you expect them to form into diffuse clouds again at some unspecified distance. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The reason for a step relation rather than a continuous change between the bulge and disk is related to where Newtonian gravity still matters in the bulge and the Dark Matter effect takes over in the disk.<hr /></blockquote> Woah. Now your explanation requires dark matter to work correctly? Got a gram of that stuff I might inspect? <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Vera Rubin did studies in this area and found stars in the disk move at the same speed without regard to how far they were from the center. So binaries in the disk near the halo cusp on out to the rim have the same kinteic energy with respect to each other. So in the disk, no binary gets a privledged source of energy from the cor</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

alokmohan · Jan 16, 2008

Nce to Think of ani man,in anti stars in anti galaxy.

michaelmozina · Jan 16, 2008

I wonder if there is an anti-MM running around out there somewhere? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> If so, I definitely never want to shake his hand. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

dragon04 · Jan 17, 2008

I wonder if there is an anti-MM running around out there somewhere? These findings certainly don't preclude that tantalizing possibility. If antimatter dominates a particular portion or portions of space, there's no reason to believe that there can't be entire solar systems made of antimatter. Fascinating thought. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!". </div>

alokmohan · Jan 17, 2008

Its likely.But we can never contact them and vice versa.

MeteorWayne · Jan 17, 2008

Why could we not contact them? Radio and light don't care if they come from matter or antimatter. Of course, we couldn't shake their hand, err, tentacle, err, palp. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

yevaud · Jan 17, 2008

I wonder if there is an anti-MM running around out there somewhere? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> If so, I definitely never want to shake his hand. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> From a magazine during the 1950's... "Doctor Edward Teller met Doctor Edward Anti-Teller. They clasped hands, and the rest was Gamma rays." Btw, an interesting factoid I was unaware of: Teller, of Penn and Teller (the quirky magicians), is Doctor Edward Teller's son. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 17, 2008

That is an interesting factoid!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

yevaud · Jan 17, 2008

Picked up on it at Lubos Motl's Blog, The Reference Frame. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 17, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Effect not particles Again, it appears you are not reading my posts very carefully. I only mentioned the Dark Matter Effect and said nothing about the various theories that have been put forth to explain the effect. Perhaps the theories are all flawed, but this does not allow one to disregard the actual observational evidence that supports its effect. It was discovered back in 1933 by Zwicky and subsequent observations by other astronomers have confirmed it.<hr /></blockquote> With respect to "dark matter", all these observations demonstrate is that we don't know how to properly calculate the mass of a galaxy very well at this point in time. With respect to the 511 kev emissions, all we can be sure of is the effect. It is the "cause" of the effect that we are actually debating. I'm going to skip the less relevant parts of your post to focus on what I believe is the key issue here. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The question of the antimatter positrons is associated with the Al26 clouds. The positrons only have so far to travel in their mean free path until they meet an electron. So most of the free positrons are just those associated with the decay of Al26 which itself was slowed and scattered by the ISM. It is not an issue of a cloud of bare positrons, but the release of â€œcannedâ€ positrons within the Al26 as it goes to Magnesium26. <hr /></blockquote> My original complaint was directed at the statement in the article that there was "a mysterious giant cloud of antimatter" roaming around in the core. I don't really have a problem with these people claiming that there is a "cloud of radioactive aluminum/material" in the core. but there is certainly no "cloud of antimatter" floating around in the core. These are two entirely different statements. Had the article only suggested that a "giant radioactive c <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 17, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Btw, an interesting factoid I was unaware of: Teller, of Penn and Teller (the quirky magicians), is Doctor Edward Teller's son.<hr /></blockquote> I did not know that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 17, 2008

"With respect to the 511 kev emissions, all we can be sure of is the effect. It is the "cause" of the effect that we are actually debating." Well not the proximate cause. We know that the signal is electron-positron annihilation. The issue is where the positrons come from, since we seem to have plenty of electrons in our galaxy <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> "giant radioactive cloud of aluminum emitted 511 kev photons" And of course, the 511 kev photons do not come from the Al 26 directly, but rather from the event above. Just wanted to make sure that point wasn't buried in these very long posts. The question is where are the positrons coming from. edited for clarification; damn and for speeling MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

michaelmozina · Jan 17, 2008

Point noted (it's a good one too). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

alokmohan · Jan 21, 2008

Existence of dark matter is not doubted by any serios scientist.Only thing is who are the candidates.Vote for brown dwarf.

michaelmozina · Jan 21, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Quite a bit more is demonstrated than just simply that. There are usually two or three papers written every day posted on the arxiv dealing with dark matter. if the most one could infer is that we do not know anything, then you are saying most astrophysicists are wasting their time. I doubt they would agree with you.<hr /></blockquote> I'm not suggesting they are wasting their time, I'm simply noting that we grossly underestimated the mass of galaxies and we aren't even sure if that "missing mass" comes from ordinary matter contained in MACHOs or it exists in some form of exotic non baryonic form of new matter that we have never observed in a lab. It's not a matter of wasting time, it's a matter of figuring out what's wrong with our mass estimation process. Either way you look at it, we still can't account for the majority of the mass in a galaxy. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />]Your concern about quick annihilation between the ISM and positrons is misguided. In order for destruction to occur, both electrons and positrons need to have the same energy. For proof, note that we observe only .511 MeV photons and not a continuum of energies that begin with a 511kev baseline.<hr /></blockquote> That sort of seems like a circular argument from my perspective. I would assume they simply annihilate near their source. You seem to be assuming they might pickup speed and energy somehow. I don't think that's a definitive 'test' of concept. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The spectrum is sharp and not broad. This indicates that if the mass of the positron has relativistic increase, it will not annihilate with an electron until the excess energy is bled off via scattering or other mechanisms. Otherwise annihilations might produce 600 kev or 900 kev photons for example. But this is not observed.<hr /></blockquote> Aren' <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

alokmohan · Jan 22, 2008

But shaking hands with antiman?Both become gammay ray.

MeteorWayne · Jan 22, 2008

Nice summary borman, thanx very much. It's nice to have someone who "groks" the subject enough to explain it to we laymen <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jan 22, 2008

Yes, but that wasn't my point. My point is we can contact them just not physically. That part was a little joke. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

satyamaries1988 · Jan 25, 2008

hi.... i m an electrical engineering student and m presently working on a thesis/report on antimatter....... i need help on data and images.......... can u plz hlp me out??????????? u can reply on my id or on satyam_aries1988@rediffmail.com

michaelmozina · Jan 25, 2008

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />i need help on data and images.......... <hr /></blockquote> Look, if you think that I'm going to shake anti-matter Michael's hand, just so you and the paparazzi's can get a "photo op", "forgetaboutit". <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

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