Any stop point in practical wormholes technology?

[mammad]

Good or bad, we are discussing in an internet forum and we must accept its implications and tolerate its nature. <br />I wish you’d accepted my ASSUMPTIONS and had stated your comments on the social aspect of wormholes. Maybe if I’d said I need your help to compose a sci-fi scenario, your feedback was positive. It’s a pity an extremely precise guy like you, is so pessimistic toward this subject.

 

[cretdob]

mammad: Assuming I were a science fiction writer, I could easily dispense with the plausibility of and difficulties associated with the existence of a worm hole. However, IMO, writing about the social ramifications is difficult for a number of reasons:<br /><br />1) How can I specifically address the era in time in which the worm hole is traversed?<br />2) How advanced would beings of that time be?<br />3) How would they react to that innovation in the context of their obviously assumed high level of scientific advancement? They may be jaded and take it all for granted.<br />4) Beings of that time may be automatons or robots, information/data collecting machines. What would the word "reaction" mean to an artificial life form?<br />5) If anthropomorphic, would their social milieu and customs have changed in correspondence with their, again, high level of scientific advancement?<br />6) I am assuming you are asking about social ramifications with regard to the associated and presumed achievement of being able to travel great distances in space via worm hole technology.<br />Wouldn't beings capable of creating/manipulating worm holes probably not have much trouble with space travel anyway? Would they really gain all that much from it? <br />7) Simply put, I don't know what people/beings of that time would be like in terms of society, law and culture. Not only would I have to visualize the technology (which is tremendously hard because it may strictly be nothing more than fantasy) but I'd be also challenged with imagining the projected status of beings of that time. So it's a double dose of problems to solve.<br /><br />In my earlier post, I was trying to explain this simplistically to myself, not to you. I notice this now upon review. I am sometimes prone to making fantastic statements within the "anything's possible" category. Never mind the holes or blanks. If I can't fill them in, I'll make the statement anyway, absurd as it is. That seems to be endemic to t

 

[cretdob]

Mental_Avenger: I really appreciate your reference to space as a bowling ball which could not easily be folded were that possible at all.<br /><br />This is very helpful to me because of the definition of space problem. I have considered that space is not empty nor is it a true medium for objects to exist within. If it were a vacuum, obviously nothing could exist within it. How could nothing contain anything?<br /><br />When I say it is not a medium for objects to exist within, I mean to say that it is an object as well. All is truly a solid mass because of the density of matter. If all is not matter, then what is it hanging onto or shaping into from? Mass upon mass exerts force and energy? How can mass have density unless the force of it exists somehow? So much mass pushing/pressing mass perhaps leads to this phenomena of universe? <br /><br />Forgive me for my ramblings - I'm really talking to myself trying to articulate this process somehow. <br /><br />I think I'll take this over to my Infinity post at some point in time. It's wearing me out to spend so much time in these Forums.<br /><br />You can't help be one with the universe because we are the universe.

 

[mammad]

Well, that’s not exactly so. We observe plenty of the theoretical efforts on this subject. Several experiments could lead to basic results. Add this to the fact that this technology could cause most profound changes on the stream of civilization. Therefore, I think one could be justified to imagine about it, although not in details, but on guidelines. <br />I repeat for the n-th time dude, assume the model has no drawback. I have no problem to discuss on the matters like mechanism of stabilizing, etc; but not this time; in which I might have no interest to discuss on social aspects of them on that time; people who disagree this, won’t find this topic useful for NOW. <br />About the other issues, I agree with you; we’re working in a unique democracy. <br /><br />cretdob,<br /><br />I’ll come back to you as soon as possible.

 

[mammad]

… I could easily dispense with the plausibility of and difficulties associated with the existence of a worm hole…<br />Exactly what I ask you to do.<br /><br />1) How can I specifically address the era in time in which the worm hole is traversed?<br />I tell you so seriously: Please consider an era between the years 2007-2010.<br /><br />2) How advanced would beings of that time be?<br />As advanced as one can guess from the above era.<br /><br />3) How would they react to that innovation in the context of their obviously assumed high level of scientific advancement?<br />I don’t know. That’s what I request you to tell your ideas about.<br /><br />4) Beings of that time may be automatons or robots, information/data collecting machines. What would the word "reaction" mean to an artificial life form?<br />Please only theorize about the humans.<br /><br />5) If anthropomorphic, would their social milieu and customs have changed in correspondence with their, again, high level of scientific advancement?<br />You can have a very well picture on this subject, regarding the era I addressed you.<br /><br />6) I am assuming you are asking about social ramifications with regard to the associated and presumed achievement of being able to travel great distances in space via worm hole technology. <br />Wouldn't beings capable of creating/manipulating worm holes probably not have much trouble with space travel anyway?<br />No severe one. <br /><br />7) Simply put, I don't know what people/beings of that time would be like in terms of society, law and culture. Not only would I have to visualize the technology (which is tremendously hard because it may strictly be nothing more than fantasy) but I'd be also challenged with imagining the projected status of beings of that time. So it's a double dose of problems to solve.<br />Let me clarify this challenge to you. Repeat my suggested era: 2007-2010! <br /><br />How can you defeat this sort of self-perpetruating/circular thinking? You can never put an end to it

 

[yevaud]

Very well. Just understand we have to have <i>some</i> definable measures of standards as to what is and isn't possible. Most of the topics in Phenomena, much as we bicker about them, do have <i>some</i> possibility. This hypothesis is, at least for the foreseeable future, not even at that level. Perhaps it actually belongs in the Science Fiction forum.<br /><br />Seriously, and that's not to diss your topic. I appreciate your desire to discuss the potential social ramifications of this as a viable technology. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[thebigcat]

I think that the Science Fiction forum would be a better place for this topic, because that is exactly what is being attempted by the OP of this thread: discussion of the social ramifications of an advance in technology.<br /><br />Unfortunately, it's being sidetracked by discussion of whether said advance is even possible.<br /><br />Not that I'm going to tell you how to do your job. I'm a mod on a fairly good sized board (20,000 registered members, over 1,000,000 posts an a board that is a little over 2 years old) and I know the difficutly in dealing with an intelligent, opinionated crowd. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Pretty much what I was thinking. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[mammad]

Yevaud,<br /><br />I’m still waiting to hear your comments on the social …Come on man! Don’t let me to repeat my request over and over… <br /><br />TheBigCat,<br /><br />Thanks for your words. Can you give me the link of that board, please? BTW, you didn’t reply to my questions…<br />

 

[yevaud]

Sorry, not a lot of time today.<br /><br />I think it would profoundly alter our society. Larry Niven, early on in his career, wrote some very interesting stories involving crime and the use of teleportation technologies that illustrate this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[mattblack]

Wormholes, if they could exist in our world, would certainly be microscopic in size at their event horizon and would very likely only be able to transmit communications information, not people or objects. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

LOL!<br /><br />That's why I moved the thread...it's all the Phenomena guys would discuss. Mammad wants to discus the potential societal ramifications, assuming this was a viable technology.<br /><br />SF forum, remember? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[netarch]

<i>I find it difficult at best to discuss social ramifications of a technology that doesn't exist. </i><br /><br />I find it difficult no one's mentioned the SF work by Stephen Baxter and Arthur C. Clarke, "The Light of Other Days", reviewed right here on space.com.<br /><br />With a wormcam, all secrets of the past are exposed. Jesus was a really nice guy, but no son of God, etc. - that type of thing. Privacy vanishes to the point that a "cult" goes "offline" to protect their privacy. The social aspects were a main part of the story. The ending is a modern adaptation of H.G Welles "Time Machine" but in reverse... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Full-time cruising now!!! </div>

 

[thebigcat]

Check your inbox, mammad.<br /><br />It would be bad form for me to post the link in open forum. Also disrespectful of this board<br /><br />As for your question...I dunno. <br /><br />One thing that pops into my mind is the impact on distribution and transit infrastructure. If is economically feasable, it could replace the planes, trains and automobiles we use to move people and goods from place to place. Several science fiction authors have dealt with this aspect, and I think it would be the greatest factor for social and economic change. Literally anywhere on Earth could be a production facility. Ecuadorean and Costa Rican banana growers could have their product at market while still green. Fresh fruits and vegetables could be had anywhere at any time of year within an hour of being picked. <br /><br />Also, the movement of people would be different, leading to changes in lifestyle. A person living in Los Angeles could wake up in the morning, have breakfast at a quiet sidewalk bistro in the warm Roman afternoon, go to work, eat lunch watching the sun rise on the Ginza in Tokyo, return to work, go home and take the family out to a trendy place under the aurora australis at Mc Murdo. Someone could, if they so chose, celebrate the new year 24 times, but they had best be ringing each one in with celebratory coffee.<br /><br />But the effect on the concept of the nation-state is quite unpredictable. In some ways the waging of wars is made much simpler. An invading army could be assembled safely at a hidden location withing one's own borders and then inserted into it's combat location without alerting the enemy high command, and a small nuclear or ANFO bomb could be precisely placed, stealthily and with assurance of maximum damage. At the same stroke, war becomes less likely due to the unwillingness of leaders to expose their people to the danger from these tactics, in short, the theory of the Great War made fact in the Cold War expressed with a whole new technology.<br /><br />Al <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mammad]

Yevaud,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. I searched a bit about Larry Niven and found his novels interesting, due to others’ remarks on them. I wish I could read them, especially those about the quantum teleportation. However, those are rather old and contain not so many words, therefore one could review them with an eye to the present time, in a more profound manner. <br />I’m not sure one could go somewhere by quantum teleportation with a speed more than that of light, but my picture of a wormhole communicational system, is say 20 billion people living in several spheres of the solar system; and indeed bigger colonies in other stellar systems as the next steps. The most extreme picture regarding the current understanding of the universe, is an intergalactic federation of the human beings and possibly other species, with the billions or trillions of population. <br /><br />NetArch,<br /><br />Thanks a lot for the comment. The book is cool, but we could have more discussion in different scopes. For example:<br /><br />A] Most probably, governments, particularly powerful ones, and more particularly the military would be the first entities using this technology, exclusively for many years. The industrialist Patterson seems ONLY a character of the novel. Besides, it’d be exciting to imagine what would happen if this technology would be presented for the first time in somewhere but the West, definitely Iran or China! <br /><br />B] The wormholes, at least the initial generations, don’t sound to be in small dimensions, maybe as big as a huge bus; so hitting the public domain won’t lead to a throughout wild spying. Besides, since we could apply them beyond the “WormCams”, the possible events are more awesome. I guess the (immediate) political result of this technology is forming a “global republic”, - I pray to God, no Kingdom, no Empire, and totally no non-democratic non-federal regime – so espionage activities toward other states, if not finished, would be (less??) severely di

 

[mammad]

TheBigCat,<br /><br />Thank you so much for the info. I love this could lead to a fair, humane & nice globalization, but my anxiety is from deathful responses of the fans & agents of the current psychotic tyrannical capitalism. Being economically feasible needs some experience, but from the perspective of establishing a martial parity and minimizing (maybe till zero!) the damages of a war, along with considering as a serious hope to our planet and environmental threats, one could regard it as a real grace. <br />My sacred goal is converting the earth to a more ethical place, regarding the would-be-shaped lifestyles you cited. <br />About waging of wars, I wonder why many people are pessimistic on this, e.g., see the comments of here, as a fine explanation of my theory:<br /><br />http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=561<br /><br />I feel the future would be more peaceful. People should demonstrate their (controlled) violence in sport, art or towards alien enemies! Killing each other is enough! Is anyone listening … … ?

 

[mammad]

Nobody wants to comment?

 

[yevaud]

Unfortunately, while SF is a forum in which you'll get a good crew to respond to your thread, it's not the busiest forum here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[netarch]

<i>Please, please, please forget moving them through time (herein). Time traveling is completely another debate and impossible IMHO.</i><br /><br />Mammad, if you get a chance read the book. There's definitely no time travel. Think of it as using the wormcam as a remote viewer, and being a wormhole the other end can be anywhere in space as well as time. <br /><br />It's been about 5 years since I read it, so I've forgotten the details. But the wormholes were described as being sub-atomic in size, so undetectable on the imaging end. Of course, I forget how Baxter explained how you could detect enough photons passing into that wormhole "lens" in order to recreate a video stream image. Sound was achieved by computer analysis (literally "lip reading"). <br /><br />I agree with your premise, though, that the chances of such technology being discovered by commercial interests rather than gov't funded basic research are as remote as it being achievable in reality - but still non-zero. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Full-time cruising now!!! </div>

 

[mammad]

NetArch,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply. As I said, time travel discussion is another subject in which I’ve being convinced to its impossibility. Note I’ve called my framework a spacewarp, without considering time-warping.<br /><br />Anyway, can anyone give some hope on this sad reality that we have to only expect the U.S. to do such kind of researches? Do you think is it possible that could be done by cool westerner countries like Switzerland, Swede, or New Zealand? Or as a hotter status, by a virtuous investor who loves such futuristic ideas, away from the interfering the intelligence/security/military organizations? I’m not talking about negative characters or mad professors in the movies like Spiderman, Superman, Batman or other similar stories in which a moron wants to control the world and a hero conquers him; I’m talking about good applications & assume if everything of this scenario would go OK. How do you think? <br />

 

[mammad]

A SO cool text on wormholes: <br /><br />http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/603/1/Engineering-Wormholes/Page1.html

 

[mammad]

No comment?????????????????????????

 

[johnsje]

read this book by Arther C Clark. Its really cool what he does with wormholes. I don't think it will ever become reality, but interesting none the less.<br /><br />The Light of Other Days<br />Arther C Clark and Stephen Baxter

 

[mammad]

johnsje,<br /><br />Thanks a lot for your comment. I will do my best to gain and read the book; but I thought there are many cool members herein who have cooler ideas than Arthur & Stephen!<br /><br />Thanks anyway & Merry Christmas

 

[johnsje]

Its true, some her may have cooler ideas for them, but at best it will be a small summary of the idea. At least in this book, you get to see if from inception to the end possibilities. Take 400 pages or so to do, but is worth it. Hard to get that kind of story from a messageboard. even this one.