Apollo - Astronaut Politics

[kiwigavin]

When I was a kid I was fascinated by the, then on-going, Apollo programme because of the technology and the whole "gee whizz" thing. This time round, I'm reading all the biogs, auto- or otherwise, fascinated by the men and their motivation. This is going to the first of many "How come he.." threads (I hope) fishing round for discussions on the motivation and internal politics in the 60s astronauts corp. <br /><br />Now I know Deke had a lot to do with selections but:<br /><br />Number 1: How come Stafford, Borman, and especially McDivitt (the 1st non-Original 7 commander) didn't get back in the running for a moon landing? All three of their missions have been described at one time or another as the most important of the whole programme (UK spelling). Surely this would have given them a lot of clout for another shot? Stafford hung around for ASTP but the other two went into Nasa admin. Why? Is it for the same reasons Mike Collins turned down 18(??) - burn out / family?<br /><br />And has anyone read anything by Jim McDivitt? He strikes me as a very under-rated (in public anyway) figure in the program (US spelling).<br /><br />Gentlebeings - the floor is yours...<br /><br />[Part Two will be a discussion of how the "rookies (I hate that term)" got their rides]<br /><br />Gavin

 

[MeteorWayne]

Turning down 18 by Collins was a moot point. The mission was elimated well before it was an issue. <br /><br />There were onlt 6 landing missions that happened, even though more were planned.<br />But the commitment went away, and of course, Apollo 13 didn't make the landing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[kimmern123]

Collins was offered the position of backup CDR on Apollo 14 by Deke during a T-38 flight prior to Apollo 11. This would've given Mike command of Apollo 17, not 18. He turned it down because he didn't want to keep exposing his family to all the pressure being an astronaut brought into their lives, and he also wanted to spend more time with them. This was also fortunate for Gene Cernan as he turned down the role of LMP on Apollo 16 and instead chanced he would be offered backup CDR for Apollo 14 and then command of Apollo 17.<br /><br />In his book, Mike Collins says that he did have a close eye on Apollo 17, as he knew it could be him flying that last lunar mission.

 

[kiwigavin]

Sorry 17 not 18, you're right. And I knew Cernan hung out for the CDR slot on 17 - gutsy move. But why didn't the three others try for a landing slot? Had they had enough as well?

 

[kimmern123]

Borman didn't want to fly again and retired both from NASA and the Air Force in 1970. The main reason for this was to spend more time with his family. His wife had become an alcoholic due to the stresses of being an astronaut wife and went into therapy. Her going into therapy, and Borman retiring, probably saved their marriage and today they are still happily married. They are actually one of the few astronaut couples from the Apollo-era still married as most of the astronauts divorced.<br /><br />McDivitt was, if my memory serves me right, offered a slot as LMP on Apollo 14 with Al Shepard. He refused and wanted a CDR-slot, and had a fall-out with Shepard. He was also assigned as lead for the Lunar Exploration Program and later the Apollo Spacecraft Program. The Shepard-incident as well as a failed attempt to ground Gene Cernan didn't make him very popular among certain key people. This, and the workings of Deke Slayton's rotation process never let him get back in the game. Dave Scott moved up as backup CDR for Apollo 12. He was CMP on Apollo 9 and this followed the usual "trend" with Deke's system, therefore a slot for McDivitt would push other CMPs down the line and this was also not very popular.<br /><br />Stafford was assigned head of the Astronauts in June 1969 and so was out of the flight rotation. I don't really see where he would fit in with Deke following the regular CMP, wait three flights, backup CDR, wait three flights, prime CDR. <br /><br />So basically this all boiled down to the rotation and coincidences with previous flights and how the astronauts got along with key people. Also, Deke's way of assigning crews was never fully known and it was a secret he took with him to the grave. I guess we'll never fully know the reason for why these people never flew a lunar landing.

 

[kiwigavin]

Just finished Borman's book (which I guess was written when he was still fuming from the Eastern debacle) and he hinted that Susan was the reason but didn't outright say so.<br /><br />I gathered from Stafford's book he had more ambitious plans that didn't involve flying again. Oh, but he did. But, being from a flying background myself, I couldn't understand guys who gave up flying to move up the slipper pole in their mahogany bombers (to mix several metaphors) and that's what his decision strikes me as.<br /><br />McDivitt. Interesting. A few other guys have alluded to him being a bit of a hard-ass. What did he do to tick off Shepard, was it over Cernan? It strikes me Cernan was the blue-eyed good ole boy of the corps. Slayton covered for his heli prang and he didn't seem to fear Shepard like the rest. So what did McDivitt try to do to him?<br /><br />Thanks chaps for the lively discussion. I was waiting to get a "newbie dumb-ass question" flaming..

 

[kimmern123]

I know Cernan was held in high regard by Shepard and the two became good friends during the training for Apollo 14. If the McDivitt-case came in the assignment process for Apollo 17, I don't remember, but if so this could indeed have ticked off Shepard.

 

[kiwigavin]

Thanks for that. I think I'll re-read the relevant part of Cernan's book. Curious though.