Approaching Iapetus - what makes it two-faced?

vogon13 · Sep 27, 2005

I have also spent a little time today looking over the Hyperion pictures sent down today. The dark material does not seem to be at a constant depth locally. A crater on a cliff (mesa?) will have a dark bottom elevation higher than the rim of a nearby crater at the base of the cliff, with its dark bottom elevation proportionally lower. A dark layer at a consistent depth beneath the surface that the impactors reveal seems excluded. Shallow, flatter craters seem less likely to have the dark bottom 'staining'. The deeper, steeper bowl shaped craters seem to be stained fairly consistently. Overlapping craters seem much less consistent at first take. I am tenatively convinced the darkening seen is consistent with the steeper white crater walls reflecting more solar energy on to the crater bottoms and making them warm enough to trigger the formation of the dark material. This process is consistent to observations of Iapetus with the difference being the chaotic rotation of Hyperion allows virtually all craters to align sunward sooner or later for this effect to occur and it occurs with radial symmetry (at least on all radially symmetrical craters), whereas on Iapetus, the alignment of the rotation axis causes the fraction of the crater bottoms darkened to be related in shape and percentage to the distance from the equator, an effect of the varying solar insolation throughout the 28+ years for Iapetus (and the rest of the Saturnian system) to travel around the sun. I have not seen any findings yet on the compositon of the dark material on Hyperion. Should it be a match with the dark material on Iapetus, well, that's the clincher, isn't it? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Sep 27, 2005

And, the current issue of Science News reports Ceres is quite spherical! This would remove a constraint on this body possibly (not definitively!) having an orbitally decayed ring emplaced on it's surface. And (BION!) a probe is planned to go there! And Vesta (IIRC) too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Sep 28, 2005

I had posted much earlier in this thread that I was not sure about the exact shapes of the 2 attendant ridges. Whether they curve away from the equator or describe great circle paths, I felt could not be descerned from the existing photos. I feel the existing photos, by themselves, (especially when looked at by me on my crappy monitor) are still insufficiently scaled and detailed to tell conclusively what path the attendants take. But clearly, if the attendant ridges formed during a period of precession of the Iapetan rotational axis triggering emplacement of orbiting ring material, then their paths will describe great circles to great precision. Due to their much smaller physical size compared to the main ridge, far less material was emplaced during this period. I'm still disappointed about the now uneeded Iapetan atmosphere. My current thinking about the ridge emplacement will work in a complete vacuum. Shucks, it was so interesting. Now, about the dark spot however... An extremely tenuous atmosphere of a kerogen precursor (methane, most likely) is needed for that. Although one that is time variable (ie. nonexistent sometimes) is ok. And where does it derive? Titan, just like the dark kerogenish spots in the steep crater bottoms of Hyperion. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Sep 30, 2005

Have been checking some more Iapetus photos and noted the '6 pack' earlier in this thread (the ones with the lat/long grid). The middle photo shows an interesting elongated 'crater' in the range of 30 to 60 degrees south. If I interpret this correctly, I think this is about 90 degrees south and west a ways from Basan crater, I mentioned earlier. This would be a good candidate for further investigation into whether or not it is the 'source' crater for the ring material. Silylene's 'landslide crater, while big enough (maybe too big), seems to show good radial symmetry. My thinking an oblique impactor started all our fun here, rules that one out, an elongated crater would direct more material into the scenario I want rather than a near vertical plop would. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Sep 30, 2005

This afternoon, I was sitting in a field looking at a local hilltop and started imagining various geometries for a slowly descending ring system to exhibit as it interacted with the hill. First off, I pictured the hill on the equator, ring system perfectly aligned to equator, and the hilltop as the highest spot on the equator. The ring particles (even house sized ones) clearly are not going to penetrate the hilltop, they will smash to 'smithereens' and accumulate at the base of the hilltop. The impact released 'snow' will interact with additional ring material and decelerate it enough to start accumulating down range of the hill top (see above post) or in other words, to the east. Additionally, early on in the thread, I mentioned perhaps the diverging attendent ridges show evidence of inclined structure in the ring system. I eventually dismissed that idea. Wrong. The diverging attendent rings { should read ridgescan reflect evidence of inclined structure in the ring system. To continue: As I imagined the ring material moving from southwest to notheast in its orbit, and the hilltop slowly moving west and passing through the ring plane (due to Iapetan rotation on its axis) (this scenario is the equivalent of inclined ring material intersecting with a fixed obstruction on the surface) As the obstruction passed through the ring plane, the 'knock down' process (see above) would deposit material downstream of the obstruction in a northeasterly direction. 180 degrees later (half a rotation period referenced to the fixed stars)my location again approaches the ring plane. On this pass the material aproaches from the northwest, zings overhead and leaves in a southeasterly direction. Again, the hilltop passes slowly westward through the ring plane (due to Iapetan rotation) and in this instance, the 'knockdown' material lands to the south east. With only 2 inclinations o <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Sep 30, 2005

Sorry for the big edit mess on that one, accidently posted during proofreading and it was a mess at that point. Finally, the point of the above is that whether the ring system of Iapetus had some outer inclined elements or not, or whether Iapetus developed a modest precessional effect on its rotation during ring system emplacement or not, doesn't matter, as either scenario will generate an equatorial ridge with two diverging attendent ridges. Just like we see on Iapetus. What does Occam say about this? I dunno. Jupiter and Saturn do not have major inclined elements in their ring systems. But Uranus does. Did Iapetus develop precession during ring emplacment as a result of the mass deposited eccentrically by the ring emplacement process itself? Seems plausible to me too. Does it matter? Thought about inclined structures first, but had a great time thinking about flywheels and eccentric weights from old 4th grade science book. Just funny there are two processes available to generate the diverging attendent ridges and for so long I didn't think there would be any. Now if I can just get a decent picture of that oblong crater....... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Oops, have to add a correction, Uranus does not have an inclined ring element, it has an eccentric ring element. An eccentric ring element in the Iapetan scenario would not result in an equatorial ridge any different than what we see (minus the 2 symetrical diverging attendant ridges). It would be rather interesting to watch an eccentic ring element emplace though, buzz, longish pause, buzz, longish pause, etc. This doesn't necessarily negate the idea of inclined ring elements causing the attendent ridges though. Just handy to have an example on an adjacent planet. I still like the idea of an inclin <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 1, 2005

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If gas from Titan is 'staining' Iapetus, why isn't hyperion discolored? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And as it turns out, Hyperion is stained. Due to it's apparently chaotic rotation, however, the staining is not distributed hemispherically on the leading side of Hyperion (it doesn't have one). It is seen in the bottoms of craters with steep walls though. Shallow 'coffee cup saucer' craters don't show the black bottom effect, but for the most part, the deep, steep, bowl craters do. In the Hyperion flyby video (see Cassini/Huygens site) there appears to be a large crater appropriately shaped but with only a small spot. As the video progressess, it becames apparent the seemingly steep far crater wall is in fact not nearly as steep as near crater wall. Analysis of the photos is rather more time consuming than I had thought it would be. I feel the correlation of crater shape and the presence or absence of the dark bottom effect is clearly related to the temperature at the bottom of the crater. The steep crater walls are able to direct additional sunlight onto the crater floor bringing the local temperature high enough to trigger the formation of the dark material. Dark material of Iapetus is previously identified as kerogen like, I'm sure the ID of the material on Hyperion will be exactly the same. As the dark staining is seen on two adjacent moons exterior to Titan, and to date, not seen on a satellite interior to Titan, Titan also possessing an atmosphere rich in a kerogen precursor and a plausible mechanism for this gas's transport (Saturn's magnetotail), the mystery of the Iapetan leading hemisphere discoloration and the dark bottomed craters of Hyperion no longer seems so mysterious. To me. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 3, 2005

That Iapetus picture in the '6 pack' earlier in this thread is really jumping at me. That elongated crater formation on the terminator looks like a bite taken out of an apple. But from the small amount of detail visible interior to the presumed crater walls, it is not 'grotesquely' deep. The elongation tends roughly N-S. Perhaps the terminator shot of this formation over-emphasizes things, but I am moving towards thinking this crater merits serious consideration as the 'source' crater of the ring material. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

jatslo · Oct 3, 2005

I think that the Iapetus Moon had a core colapse, as the once warm liquids froze to ice that locked the aliens in cryogenic hibernation.<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />That Iapetus picture in the '6 pack' earlier in this thread is really jumping at me. That elongated crater formation on the terminator looks like a bite taken out of an apple. But from the small amount of detail visible interior to the presumed crater walls, it is not 'grotesquely' deep. The elongation tends roughly N-S. Perhaps the terminator shot of this formation over-emphasizes things, but I am moving towards thinking this crater merits serious consideration as the 'source' crater of the ring material. <hr /></blockquote>

vogon13 · Oct 4, 2005

Poked around with an old map of Iapetus and my best estimate for the location of this possible source crater is 30 to 60 degrees south latitude, and around 210 degrees longitude. The antipodal area seems to be off the (what I'll call) the right edge of the existing higher res Cassini pictures. Cassini hasn't really imaged the possible source crater area very well either. More goodies to look forward to in 2007. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 12, 2005

Mentioned previously, volume of ridge approximates out at 10,000 cubic kilometers. (20 km across at base, 10 km high, 1000 km long, all approx to keep numbers easy. close enough) What is 10,000 cubic kilometers in a spherical form? Roughly a sphere 27 km in diameter. Interesting. All in one place, not enormously big as satellites go. As a crater, 112 km across, 1 km deep. -or- 80 km across, 2 km deep. Had also considered today, a scenario for the ring formation even closer to the Odysseus event hypothesized to have formed earth's moon. What if everything preceeds apace as worked out to date, but with one difference. The event also creates a satellite for Iapetus. Does this effect what we see? Well, assuminging Iapetus has not yet tide locked with Saturn during this epoch ( a safe bet, BTW ) Iapetus will be rotating underneath the now forming ring system, and the new satellite. The new satellite, for possible existence purposes, needs to form (coalesce? stabilize?) above the Roche limit. As such, its period of revolution around Iapetus will be at least several hours longer than the 'high side' of the ring system. Lets say 20 hours. Should Iapetus be rotating on its axis faster than this, say 15 hours, we have the basis for an interesting event. As the earth and moon interact tidally, so to will Iapetus and its new satellite. Due to its small size and proximity to Iapetus, it will rapidly tide lock to Iapetus. This will occur regardless of the timescale of the equatorial ridge emplacement, however. Fascinating to think, though, it may have been possible to watch a moon in the Iapetan sky during the ring emplacement phase. Whether this satellite is tide locked or not during this period makes little difference. Also, the ring system now has an object to set up resonances with at the altitudes where the periods are comensurate to simple whole n <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 15, 2005

LOL, looks like I have consistently used the term Odyseus (in a variety of spellings too!) through out my postings here, when of course I meant to use the word Orpheus. This is in regards to, of course, the hypothesized impactor that nailed earth and created the moon. Hope this doesn't detract too much. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 18, 2005

{b u m p} <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

jmilsom · Nov 1, 2005

Vogon13, Having very little time, I have fallen way behind you on this stuff and really cannot contribute much anymore although I still read the threads when I have time. Concerning Iapetus, it would be great if occasionally you summarised your exact thinking on the ridge formation phenomenon. Then others, perhaps daunted by having to read through the entire thread could pick up at the last summary point and add to it! I gather you are still runnning with your hypothesis that Iapetus itself had a ring that rained onto the surface, rather than the ring sweep theory? Correct me if I am wrong as I have only skimmed the thread. One thought occurred to me after reading your Telesto thread and this one. In the former you suggest a possible natural migration of small satellites into trojan positions. Considering ring formation, perhaps some of these trojans have too small a gravitational mass to remain viable bodies once directly under the influence of Saturn. Such a body (perhaps helped along by smaller collisions) may disaggregate into ring material. No longer able to hold their trojan position, they are then swept up by the trailing larger moon (provided they are in a leading trojan position), forming an equatorial ridge. Perhaps this is an entirely natural process making the Iapetus ridge not a unique phenomenon, but a likely occurrence under the right conditions. I really must compliment you on your leading efforts on all these discussions on moon formation in the solar system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Nov 1, 2005

Frequently around here, I go through the longer threads backwards. For the threads that stay on topic, you get to see the ideas develop. I suppose the stuff I put in here gets more coherent towards the end, but there is so much good stuff through out the thread, silylene and J8hart and yourself have really put in some excellent efforts, I would want viewers to take in the whole thing. It is complex though, in that there are getting to be several different threads, that taken together, are hopefully illuming the outer solar system objects for everyone. Just what I am able to absorb here is quite astonishing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

3488 · Jul 14, 2006

Just seen this, so I thought I could add this. One idea being bantered about, is that Iapetus once had a fast rotation, hence the walnut shape. The equator cracked (an icy crust over a semi moten slushy mantle), & cryovolcanism broke out, erupting slushy ice, which froze in layers to form the equatorial ridge (averaging 11 KM high & in places 22 KM high). Iapetus rotation slowed & became synchronous (ie keeps the same face turned towards Saturn) the interior froze solid & from then on, the dichotomy of albedo built up (dark leading, bright trailing hemispheres). In 2007 when Cassini makes the close encounter, I would like to see a swathe of high resolution images taken of a cross section of the equatorial ridge, to look for cryovolcanic flows & vents (if my hunch is correct), unless millions of years of cratering has obliterated them. The bright / dark hemispheres I think are the result of dust coating the leading side. The encounter in December 2004 / January 2005 shows precious little other than impact crafters on the darkened hemisphere, but the encounter next year with high resolution images may show more. The tracking of Cassini will be important as it may show if Iapetus has a rocky / metallic core, overlain by an ice mantle & then a crust of solid ice. Iapetus is certainly more interesting than most of the moons of Saturn, apart from Titan & Enceladus. Phoebe is of added interest, simply because of its almost certain Kuiper Belt origin, so in a way Cassini beat New Horizons to a Kuiper Belt object. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

vogon13 · Jul 15, 2006

The symmetrical diverging attendent ridges are a very tough detail for any volcanic or cryo-volcanism to explain. The main ridge and the 2 attendents are dead straight too, probably an even tougher characteristic for a volcanic process to create. The rotational effects described certainly could not generate something like this: ------------------<------------------ We also conveniently have an enormous excavated depression at one end of the ridge (what I have been calling Landslide Crater) and at the resolution of the pictures, there is no discontinuity in the underlying strata of the ridge structure. Which, it seems, one might expect for this rotational/cryovolcanism idea. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

3488 · Jul 17, 2006

I see your point, but I still think that a faster rotating young semimolten Iapetus (before it froze through) is still part of the answer. I certainly await the close encounter by the Cassini spacecraft. I will see if my request for a high resolution cross section of the equatorial ridge will be accepted. We will see then is it is compressional & / or cryovolcanic. I still think that the large basin in the centre does not look like an impact feature. It has sunk. The basin with the landslide certainly is impact. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 20, 2006

Just wondering if these enlarged images could help? I still think that the equatorial ridge is a compression feature (ridge). Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 20, 2006

How about this one?? I think it does show a gap, with some isolated peaks?? In August 2007 we shall see. During the December 2004 encounter, did Cassini obtain a density profile for Iapetus, or was the miss distance too great? I wonder if Iapetus is differentiated like the Earth, Io, Ganymede or is homogenous like Mimas or Callisto? Would it also be possible to reduce the encounter distance in August 2007, as had been done in July 2005 with Enceladus? This would enable higher resolution imaging as well as a more detailed gravity survey as well as detect any possible tenuous atmosphere? It does seem starnge that such a large object like Iapetus (1,440 kilometres / 895 miles diameter) formed so far away from Saturn. Also the 15 degree inclined orbit is quite strange. Iapetus is certainly one of the more interesting moons of Saturn, with the exceptions of Titan & Enceladus & ranks among the most interesting in the entire Solar System, along with the Moon, Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto, Titan, Phoebe, Triton, Miranda. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 20, 2006

The Uranus moon Oberon also appears to have some tall mountains & Oberon is slightly larger than Iapetus in size (Iapetus 1,440 KM across, Oberon 1,522 KM across). Of course this view is almost pole on, as Voyager 2 encountered the Uranus system pole on. The mountain at the 7 O,Clock position is therefore equatorial. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 20, 2006

Close up of 6 kilometre / 4 mile high peak on the Uranus moon Oberon. This mountain is equatorial on Oberon, much like the ridge on Iapetus. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 20, 2006

Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

vogon13 · Jul 20, 2006

'Notches' in the ridge are most likely subsequent crater damage from impacts. The very far end (where the notches are) IIRC are to be imaged at very close range by Cassini. />|< />|< />|< /> < />|< />|< /> < />|< />|< />|< />|< />|< />|< /> < />|< />|< />|< In the above (unusually crappy ) diagram, the compression forces are the /> < arrows, and the ridge is shown as the |. How does the compressional forces explanation for the ridge handle the gaps? I have no problem for subsequent crater damage causing gaps for a ridge formed due to ring emplacement (and there may be a way for a ring system to emplace at several locations around the equator simultaneously, besides). Would gaps in the compressional model be the result of subsequent cratering or is there something else inherent about the compression idea that might make gaps 'congenitally"? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

3488 · Jul 21, 2006

You diagram actually explains it well. The gaps IMO are certainly impact damage. I have enlarged another portion of the image which shows what looks like a small ridge running along the mountain belt. I have had virtually no information regarding the August 2007 encounter, other than the closest approach is about 1,000 kilometres. I hope it can be reduced to about 200 KM, to allow for super high resolution imaging (as was done with Enceladus in July 2005), particularly a cross section of the equatorial ridge, & to allow for more accurate gravity profiling. I had included the Uranus moon Oberon, as I thought that Oberon may share some similar characteristics with Iapetus & ay help us to understand Iapetus a little better. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Approaching Iapetus - what makes it two-faced?

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