Asteroid from supernova?

[miguez]

Hello there,

I have searched the net and this forum and can't find a direct answer to what I have been considering.

Given the fact heavy atoms form inside stars, and if the star is massive enough, it will go supernova once it's "fuel" is extinguished, is it possible that an asteroid the size of what killed the dinosaurs (or similar) and composed mainly of heavy elements could form as a direct result of this incredible explosion, or would all materials be vaporized and not have enough attraction to coalesce into a big enough object?

Thanks,

 

[MeteorWayne]

It's likely that everything is so dispersed that only small dust particles could be created from supernova ejecta. Certainily if any asteroids existed around the star before hand, it could be thrown of into space, but with the unimaginably large distances between stars it's highly unlikely any would come close to another star.

Besides, no such exotic source is needed for impacts on earth. There's plenty of left over junk in the solar system that has, can (and will eventually will) hit us.

Welcome to Space.com!

Wayne

 

[michaelmozina]

Hello there,

I have searched the net and this forum and can't find a direct answer to what I have been considering.

Given the fact heavy atoms form inside stars, and if the star is massive enough, it will go supernova once it's "fuel" is extinguished, is it possible that an asteroid the size of what killed the dinosaurs (or similar) and composed mainly of heavy elements could form as a direct result of this incredible explosion, or would all materials be vaporized and not have enough attraction to coalesce into a big enough object?

Thanks,

Just to confuse you, I'm going to say that yes, "maybe" it's possible. Wayne's answer is probably the more likely scenario, but supernova events seem to be very unique in their energy release patterns.

 

[miguez]

Hi Wayne, hi Michael,

Nice to be here at space.com! Thanks for the replies.

The question is because my father is writing a book, and he needs a heavy asteroid that will enter the solar system at a very high speed, around 125 km/s. He figured perhaps a supernova can generate the incredible energy to propel something that fast. The idea was the dust would undergo accretion due to a non-symmetrical explosion, and form the asteroid.

Otherwise, perhaps it would be possible that the supernova remnant would impact a rocky planet, destroy it, and propel a similar chunk to this order of speed...?

Thanks,

 

[MeteorWayne]

Yeah, really a 125 km/sec asteroid fits better in sci fi, since no asteroid (or even meteor) has ever been detected at a high enough speed to be unequivocally deteremined to come from outside the solar system. A few have been detected with a speed that could hve come from outside, but the error bars in the speeds would also have allowed the possibility it was a solar system object.

BTW, the fastest possible speed for a solar system object to impact the earth is ~ 72 km/sec. Of course, fiction has no such restraints

MW

 

[solarflare]

MW -- "BTW, the fastest possible speed for a solar system object to impact the earth is ~ 72 km/sec. Of course, fiction has no such restraints"

Haley's relative velocity was 70.56 km/s as it passed earth in 1910. Cosmic rays, protons and alpha particles (helium nucleus) can travel close to the speed of light clear across the universe so it is very plausible that something 145 kilometers diameter can travel a fraction of the speed light. Measurements of gas velocities in the solar neighborhood show that the sun, and everything in its vicinity, orbits the galactic center at a speed of about 220 km/s … Intergalactic wandering objects would be the most dangerous.

Get your stuff right before you lay-into someone else.

 

[michaelmozina]

Hi Wayne, hi Michael,

Nice to be here at space.com! Thanks for the replies.

The question is because my father is writing a book, and he needs a heavy asteroid that will enter the solar system at a very high speed, around 125 km/s. He figured perhaps a supernova can generate the incredible energy to propel something that fast. The idea was the dust would undergo accretion due to a non-symmetrical explosion, and form the asteroid.

Otherwise, perhaps it would be possible that the supernova remnant would impact a rocky planet, destroy it, and propel a similar chunk to this order of speed...?

Thanks,

You might have your father checkout this observation:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/07_rel ... 12807.html

Supernova events seem to be capable of spewing material at very high velocities under specific and unusual types of conditions. The "crust" of neutron star is also thought to be composed of mostly Nickle and Iron ions that have been stripped of all their electrons. Now if a piece of that crust ripped off during the supernova event, well, like I said "maybe". It's probably a one in a billion scenario, but hey, it could happen.

The other primary "culprit" for high velocity objects is discussed in the article:

So-called hypervelocity stars have been previously discovered shooting out of the Milky Way with speeds around one million miles per hour. One key difference between RX J0822-4300 and these other reported galactic escapees is the source of their speed. The hypervelocity stars are thought to have been ejected by interactions with the supermassive black hole in the Galaxy's center.

 

[miguez]

Yeah, really a 125 km/sec asteroid fits better in sci fi, since no asteroid (or even meteor) has ever been detected at a high enough speed to be unequivocally deteremined to come from outside the solar system. A few have been detected with a speed that could hve come from outside, but the error bars in the speeds would also have allowed the possibility it was a solar system object.

BTW, the fastest possible speed for a solar system object to impact the earth is ~ 72 km/sec. Of course, fiction has no such restraints

MW

Hi Wayne,

My father mentions the ~ 72 km/s as the maximum speed for a solar system object in the book. Actually, that's why he created the asteroid from a supernova, so as not to be limited by this speed. It also allowed him to create a supernova that was seen in the sky by our ancestors i Africa about 15,000 years ago, which ties into the story.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, we have never detected an asteroid with that relative velocity, but nothing stops it from being possible, right? And if that is correct indeed, then the original question applies, would it be realistically that an asteroid be part of the remnants of a supernova, or at least a result of it.

Michael, thanks for the article, I am going to read it now. Sounds like my Dad was doing his homework, as his asteroid is about 60% nickel, 20% iron, then other fillers.

Finally, solarflare, thanks for the input, interesting stuff, but in no time did Wayne lay into me, he was just sharing technical info, which I appreciated.

 

[MeteorWayne]

MW -- "BTW, the fastest possible speed for a solar system object to impact the earth is ~ 72 km/sec. Of course, fiction has no such restraints"

Haley's relative velocity was 70.56 km/s as it passed earth in 1910. Cosmic rays, protons and alpha particles (helium nucleus) can travel close to the speed of light clear across the universe so it is very plausible that something 145 kilometers diameter can travel a fraction of the speed light. Measurements of gas velocities in the solar neighborhood show that the sun, and everything in its vicinity, orbits the galactic center at a speed of about 220 km/s … Intergalactic wandering objects would be the most dangerous.

Get your stuff right before you lay-into someone else.

First of all, I didn't "lay into someone else". I merely stated a fact about solar system objects. Certainly cosmic rays, which are ions, some of which are atomic nuclei, can be accelerated to a large fraction of the speed of light. It's a different matter for an asteroid which has significant mass.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hi Wayne,

My father mentions the ~ 72 km/s as the maximum speed for a solar system object in the book. Actually, that's why he created the asteroid from a supernova, so as not to be limited by this speed. It also allowed him to create a supernova that was seen in the sky by our ancestors i Africa about 15,000 years ago, which ties into the story.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, we have never detected an asteroid with that relative velocity, but nothing stops it from being possible, right? And if that is correct indeed, then the original question applies, would it be realistically that an asteroid be part of the remnants of a supernova, or at least a result of it.

Michael, thanks for the article, I am going to read it now. Sounds like my Dad was doing his homework, as his asteroid is about 60% nickel, 20% iron, then other fillers.

Finally, solarflare, thanks for the input, interesting stuff, but in no time did Wayne lay into me, he was just sharing technical info, which I appreciated.

Hi miguez. Like has been said above, it's not impossible, just very unlikely. But for the purpose of a sci-fi story, it's fair game... I'd be interested in reading it! A number of stories have used that as fodder for a good story.
Wayne

 

[bushwhacker]

I'd like a copy of that book myself.

 

[miguez]

Thanks for the info guys. The book is written in Portuguese, as my father is from Brazil, and I am translating it to English. I am currently in chapter 3, out of 18, so it will be a little while still. But perhaps I can post the first chapter so you can read the setup for the story, pretty ingenious.

 

[hunglo567]

I too would love to read this story. It's all too rare for a fiction writer to actually research what is possible. My hats off to you and your father.

 

[meepen]

The orbital mechanics to get the rock to the same solar system that the light reached 15,000 years ago will probably be pretty ugly but someone here can probably figure them out.

An easier explanation for high speed interstellar asteroids is having some torn out of an Oort cloud by a passing star in a stellar nursery. It is probably not as clean a plot device but you could have the asteroid be from the same nursery that Earth was ejected from billions of years ago, possibly even having been torn from Sol's own Oort cloud and (more ugly orbital mechanics) reentering the solar system these billions of years later.

 

[Jimmars]

I agree that a supernova probably would not form asteroids because the material would be so spread out. However, I do believe that asteroids (slow or fast moving) passing through our solar system would be quite possible. I read a few years ago of the discovery of a comet or asteroid in our solar system that was from another star. I think I read it in Science News. Asteroids/comets can easily be made to go almost anyplace at any speed by passing stars. Stars do sometimes get that close. Studies with Hubble have shown that binary stars can actually interact and trade their companions. These events are quite common inside of tight clusters. Of course working out the exact orbital mechanics would be difficult. However, for science fiction one would not need exact numbers, just possibilities. To build the case in a science fiction story, I would mention some examples of orbital mechanics and that bodies from other stars have come from other stars. You may want to search information about how Jupiter throws things around. Good luck with the book. I just hate it when science fiction writers do not check their facts.
Jim S

 

[MrShootist]

"The question is because my father is writing a book,"


Already been done. Badly. Starship Troopers (the retched movie, not the wunderbar novel by Heinlein).

Tell Dear old Dad this is a really bad idea.

 

[misterrmac]

"The question is because my father is writing a book,"


Already been done. Badly. Starship Troopers (the retched movie, not the wunderbar novel by Heinlein).

Tell Dear old Dad this is a really bad idea.

A little quick to the punch, aren't we? You have no clue what the book is supposed to be about other than that it contains a fast moving asteroid and make assumptions about the storyline...? shame on you!

I for one would be interested in hearing what the actual plot is.

 

[MeteorWayne]

"The question is because my father is writing a book,"

Already been done. Badly. Starship Troopers (the retched movie, not the wunderbar novel by Heinlein).

Tell Dear old Dad this is a really bad idea.

Just because there has been crap written using a concept doesn't mean that a good (or great) treatement of the idea can't be (and as you stated) hasn't been done. There's plenty of crap sci-fi (See Starship Troopers)...there's also a lot that's very good. Many share the same starting idea. Many,many,many

 

[silylene]

Since it is Science Fiction, perhaps the asteroids could originate from exploded planets ('exploded planet hypothesis' aslo known as EPH...google the terms for more info]. EPH is also crap, but at least it sounds marginally more tenable than asteroids coming from supernovas....and you can find a lot of worked out hypotheses on spontaneously exploded planets on the interwebz by believers in this field of pseudoscience.

 

[miguez]

Thanks for all the supporting info guys, good stuff!

Regarding exploding planets and Starship Troopers, he's being as scientific as possible. I don't think anyone here would call it impossible for an asteroid to enter our solar system doing 125 km/s. That's all I have mentioned so far.

Coming from a supernova is, as far as I can tell, not impossible either. It seems we still lack a whole lot of knowledge about these types of events, including asymmetric ones and the Chandra-observed star moving at 833 miles per second. It coming from supernova works for the plot, but he's not married to the idea. The main point is the asteroid, it's origin is a nice side story. I don't think it is too unrelatic to say the asteroid arrived in our solar system as a result of the supernova. How that happened exactly might not be known.

Thanks again,

 

[Couerl]

I don't understand the rationale behind the idea that super nova "asteroids", (metal or other solid debris) are not cast-off in the final throws of a stars existence. Surely, 99.999% or more of the debris ejected from a super nova will be in a plasma and gaseous state because of the tremendous forces involved, but all high energy events taper-off in output toward their end and even if .001% of that ejecta came finally in the form of solids that should add up to a lot of material. I'm thinking along the lines of lava hitting ocean water and suddenly cooling and perhaps dense enough blobs of plasma would do the same in the vacuum of space before it had a chance to break down and become gaseous, but, admittedly,.. perhaps I am looking at this incorrectly.

 

[kg]

How about the core of a hot Jupiter like planet? I'm not sure how close it could orbit a star large enough to supernova but if it was close enough could it be smashed to bits and sling shotted out of orbit by the redistribution of mass of the star? I've heard of fast moving supernova remnents being attributed to this.

 

[miguez]

How about the core of a hot Jupiter like planet? I'm not sure how close it could orbit a star large enough to supernova but if it was close enough could it be smashed to bits and sling shotted out of orbit by the redistribution of mass of the star? I've heard of fast moving supernova remnents being attributed to this.

Hi kg,

This was another of my thoughts, if it proved impossible for the material to come from the star itself. But it sounds like it could be either.