Att: Shuttle Bashers! *DELETED*

[shuttle_rtf]

>How can you say that it worked?<<br /><br />*I* can't, but I know a man who can. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I could answer the question on the tanks (composite tanks) but I'm not at liberty to do so at this time.<br /><br />Like I intimated, watch this space.

 

[spacefire]

that and the Shuttle being a deathtrap is no reason to go back to 60s type expendable launchers. how will you get to Mars if you can't even put sizable loads in LEO at manageable prices?<br />no, I don't think the VSE and the CEV will ever be built.<br />I think the first mission to Mars will be a private venture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[erauskydiver]

The X-33 was only a subscale suborbital test vehicle with no payload capability, and they couldnt make it work. LM poured millions of dollars of their own money into it to get it to work. You think it would have been any easier when it was time to build the full scale Venture Star? Very doubtful.<br /><br />Orbital Sciences was even a part of the decision to cancel their own vehicle because they saw the projected cost and risk to be climbing to unacceptable heights. I dont think the X-34 was ever intended to be an operational vehicle anyway. It was only a test bed.<br />

 

[spacefire]

as I said before, an X33 with a X38 pigyback would make a nice reusable 2 stage launcher. How come nobody tried to salvage the program in this direction? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[vt_hokie]

<font color="yellow">"The X-33 was only a subscale suborbital test vehicle with no payload capability, and they couldnt make it work."</font><br /><br />I understand exactly what it was and what it was intended for. X-33 was the first program I was assigned to at my first job out of college. But I would argue that they could have made it work. They just couldn't do it for the $1.2 billion that was spent on the project, and no additional funding was provided. If no allowances had been made for cost overruns, Apollo wouldn't have worked either!

 

[spacefire]

not to mention the linear aerospike engine which was promptly forgotten! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

Because the X-33 was a test bed, Mach 15 and a couple of hundred or thousand miles down range, thats it. <b>It had no payload</b>, you couldn't lift the X-38 with it even if you tryed it would just sit there on the pad.<br /><br />

 

[spacefire]

I didn't mean literally...I meant derivatives of the two. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[erauskydiver]

"as I said before, an X33 with a X38 pigyback would make a nice reusable 2 stage launcher. How come nobody tried to salvage the program in this direction?" <br /><br />Why would you do this??

 

[spacefire]

because using the data collected during the two programs might save some money, instead of starting from scratch-remember that some of the OSP proposal were two or three stage fully reusable vehicles. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[j05h]

>the X33 was in a much more advanced stage when it was cancelled...and before the VSE there was the SLI with the OSP and it all went to POO.<br /><br />VSE is a little diffferent than the previous NASA TLAs. CRV, OSP, SLI were all tech development efforts. In total, Bush and others have laid out the Vision as a set of goals, not equipment. Bush has stated that this is a national effort, not just NASA, he is expecting corporate & other private efforts, Air Force help and for this to be the push that makes America into a true spacefaring nation, finally. It goes far beyond developing a new rocket. That he has outlined a plan that leads to settling the High Frontier is maybe what bothers some people about it. It's not a "trillion dollar Mars mission" - it's that we will have another Frontier and that scares people. <br /><br />Keep in mind that Shuttle/station budgets helped kill many of those development efforts. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[spacefire]

so this VSE is more inflated rhetoric than anything else...<br />sorry, but Bush is the least inspiring person ever. Maybe if you put him among preschoolers he might inspire them not to fight with food but my guess is he'd be ridiculed even by kids. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[erauskydiver]

I dont think I totally understand what it is that would make you happy Spacefire. Please provide a list of conditions that would clearly represent "Spacefire's Idea of a Perfect Space Program."

 

[j05h]

>The X-33 did work, they just contracted out the tanks to the wrong people. The Tanks failed and that's what killed it................for now.<br /><br />people have been saying this since it got canned. Still ain't gonna happen. The x-33/venturestar is dead until you invent unobtainium. They couldn't make the mass fraction for the production vehicle, and knew it. Hence the smaller payloads and external cargo pod. The tanks aren't the only problem they had with the X-33 test article, there were all sorts of integration issues. <br /><br />What's wrong with regular rockets? They work. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[spacefire]

you got a pen and paper ready?<br />Stage 1: 2 stage reusable launcher-using rocket engines<br />Stage 2: RBCC SSTO-cheap access to space 'nuff said<br />Stage 3: Moon base<br />Stage 4: Mars<br />NASA has decided to skip steps 1 and 2. bad idea IMO. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

The minimum cost of placing human beings on Mars will be at least $20 billion, and that cost estimate is by the greatest advocate of Mars Direct there is: Dr. Robert Zubrin. Personally, while I have read and even have his books in my posetion, and have very great respect of the man, I personally think his cost estimates are off by at least a factor of some 5 times (closer to 100 billion). <br /><br />Where is private industry going to come up with that kind of funding? Where is the return on investment that even the investors who like risk investment are going to ask for? What profit? Where is the profit? <br /><br />I am not an economist, I am a retired aerospace worker whose main expertise was in manufacturing and quality assurance. But even I know enough about economics to know that private industry will NEVER come up with this kind of risk money. It just isn't going to happen!!<br /><br />As a matter of fact I personally think that sending human beings to Mars (which I would LOVE to see as much as anybody) just isn't going to be feasable for just the resources of a country as rich as the US is alone. It is going to take the entire resources of all of the space programs of the entire earth to do this correctly! Do you think this will be possible in the next 30 to 40 years? If so, someone like me who is already 62 will quite probably never even see it happen! <br /><br />I will be very happy to even see us go back to the moon (in particular as I was one of the original 400,000 or so people that enabled us to do it the first time) to stay and do useful work, not just exploration, but actual exploitation of the resorces of the moon itself!

 

[spacefire]

once we have established a good presence in LEO (which the private industry will achieve through Bigelow modules and Falcon rockets), going to Mars will be much easier. The first missions are going to remain in orbit, possibly exploring Phobos and Deimos and setting them up as waystations for future expeditions which will include landers. Yes, it will take time, lots of money, and it will be a cooperative international effort. I just don't think any goverment will play a big part in this endeavor. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[fkawi1]

Please excuse me for not returning sooner, something came up. First I want to apologize to everyone for even starting this thread the way I did. It wasn't clear as to what I was trying to convey at all. I feel stupid to be honest! From now on I will try to act like I was born the first day of 1956 and perhaps think before I type? I am of course new here and I feel bad for the way this post started. I really respect all of you here and the last thing I would want is to start out on the wrong foot and have you all think that I am a a**hole and a jerk and not want to talk with me. I truely am sorry that I didn't choose a more appropriate way of addressing this topic. I see that everyone here has already discussed this topic in depth so I would really like to just move on if thats o.k.? Thank you very much for giving me a chance to be just a regular Joe and not judge me for my rocky start in your world here. Like I said I really do respect all of you here and enjoy the wealth of information and insight I get from these posts and I would like to participate and not be the village idiot! What do you say?.....................

 

[john_316]

thats makes me kinda glad i didnt post on this one either...<br /><br />lol<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[frodo1008]

I reallly didn't find your first post nearly as bad as you seem to think it was! Have you ever been over to the free space forum? You are really very kind and considrate compared to some people over there!<br /><br />Stick around, you WILL learn a lot of things if you really wish to!