Australian astronomers expect Martian invasion

[l3p3r]

http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19325924.000-australian-astronomers-expect-martian-invasion.html<br /><br />Just checking, but isn't it ridiculous to assume organisms from Mars could harm humans, because they haven't had host organisms to adapt to?<br /><br />Does this mean that Astronomers in Australia are poorly educated, or does it mean that Astronomers were the wrong people to direct the question at? <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Typical for NewScientist. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow"> Just checking, but isn't it ridiculous to assume organisms from Mars could harm humans, because they haven't had host organisms to adapt to? <br /><br />Does this mean that Astronomers in Australia are poorly educated, or does it mean that Astronomers were the wrong people to direct the question at? </font><br /><br />First: if you want a serious discussion, you might want to stay away from the sensationalist headline. I almost didn't bother to look at this thread because it just looked like another posting from the Woo-Woo crowd. How about "Australian astronomers Concerned About Potential Martian Microbe Invasion." That more accurately describes the article and might invite serious responses.<br /><br />Seoncd, I completely disagree with your premise. They Aussies weren't saying that the sky is falling. Here is what they said:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Only 36 of the astronomers had "complete confidence" that NASA would protect Earth from contamination - while 1 in 10 had no confidence at all."</font><br /><br />I am not surprised that one in 10 educated people have lost confidence in NASA. This is the organization that has MISPLACED the FRICKEN MOON videos!!!! The incompetence of that is beyond stunning.<br /><br />As far as contamination from Mars, probably unlikely, but certainly a very real risk. 500 years ago, 90% of Native Americans were wiped out by microbes that evolved a few thousand miles away because they had no defenses to them. It is a very real risk, that if there are microbes on Mars, that we have no defenses to them and they could pose a serious health risk.<br /><br />BTW, for the convenience of NASA, below is a simple 10 step checklist for any future missions to the moon.<br /><br />1. Go to Moon.<br />2. Pick Up Rocks.<br />3. Take Pictures and Videos.<br />4. Return from Moon.<br />5. Store the rocks.<br />6. Record where you stored them.<br />7. Make extra copies of the rock records.<br />8. Store th

 

[MeteorWayne]

A little nervous, eh, Rob? <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

No. Bringing living microbes back from Mars would be one of the great accomplishments in human history. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take reasonable precautions to further minimize a very small, but potentially devastating risk.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I was referring to steps 6-10 <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[l3p3r]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>How about "Australian astronomers Concerned About Potential Martian Microbe Invasion." That more accurately describes the article and might invite serious responses. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Sounds to me like "Australians doubt NASA's capacity to behave in a sensible fashion" would do just as well <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>90% of Native Americans were wiped out by microbes that evolved a few thousand miles away because they had no defenses to them.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but these microbes had evolved to attack humans as a species specifically. In the same way it takes generations of microbes that might kill any other animal to find themselves in a form that could harm humans, wouldn't any microbes on mars require unreasonably large modification to pose any threat to humans? <br /><br />If I sent the first manned mission to Mars, however, I'd take reasonable precautions because I'm paranoid, but is there actually real necessity to this? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<font color="yellow">these microbes had evolved to attack humans as a species specifically. In the same way it takes generations of microbes that might kill any other animal to find themselves in a form that could harm humans, wouldn't any microbes on mars require unreasonably large modification to pose any threat to humans?<br /><br />If I sent the first manned mission to Mars, however, I'd take reasonable precautions because I'm paranoid, but is there actually real necessity to this?</font><br />good point you made about microbes likely having hard times to do anything to us<br /><br />probably if there were martians with green antenae protruding from their heads, very likely they couldn't even rape our women because they wouldn't be compatible some way LOL <br /><br />and it would be the same with those microbes, still also as you say we would take reasonable precautions anyway<br />however I think that when you explore terra incognita you can't be safe and if you wanted to be safe, you wouldn't go exploring in the first place because that is risky by definition <br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">In the same way it takes generations of microbes that might kill any other animal to find themselves in a form that could harm humans, wouldn't any microbes on mars require unreasonably large modification to pose any threat to humans? <br /><br />If I sent the first manned mission to Mars, however, I'd take reasonable precautions because I'm paranoid, but is there actually real necessity to this? </font><br /><br />I don't think we have a major disagreement. It is unlikely that any Martian microbes would hurt us. But it is certainly not impossible: the good news is that they would not evolved any particular method to attack us; the bad news is that we would have evolved new defenses against them. Therefore, while it does make sense to take reasonable precautions, the hazard seems low and acceptable.

 

[JonClarke]

Well, I finally got to check up on this story, as I had strong suspicions as to what it was about. It is turns out, I was right. <br /><br />It is a complete beat up and misrepresentation to boot - although I would disagree with wayne and say that it is typical on NS. I have some involvement in thie events in this story so I hope this will set the record straight.<br /><br />Sarah Joyce is a PhD student at the University of Western Australia's faculty of Medicine, dentistry, and Health Sciences. She is researching public perception of heath risks. <br /><br />Sarah approached Mars Society Australia (MSA) about a year ago to see whether MSA would be interested in supporting investigations into the public perception of risks associated with Mars missions, in particular Mars Sample Return (MSR). MSA set up an online questionnaire for her use. At this stage of Sarah's investigations she was interested in the opinions of the informed Australian public - with with a professional or amateur interested in spaceflight and astronomy, and to compare results with similar surveys done in the US. To this end she contacted members of MSA and various professional and amateur astronomical groups in Australia. This is the first error in the story. This is not a survey of "Australian astronomers" at all, but rather a much broader group. <br /><br />The results of this first phase of Sarah's research was presented last year at the annual Australian Mars Exploration Conference (AMEC). I have her presentation with me as a type this up.<br /><br />While only 49% had high to complete confidence in NASA to protect earth against risks, only 9.5% had no confidence at all, and 71.7% had moderate or higher trust. So erro number through, rather than less than half those surveyed trusting NASA in fact nearly three quarters had moderate to high levels of trust in NASA to protect the Earth.<br /><br />The results are similar to what was obtained in a US survey in 2000 performed by Race and McGreggo <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"It is a complete beat up and misrepresentation to boot... I have some involvement in thie events in this story so I hope this will set the record straight."</font><br /><br />Thanks for that insight, Jon.<br /><br />Typical journalism.<br /><br />Just like you, I've been involved in events that were subsequently reported in newspapers and couldn't believe how the story had been twisted to sound much different than it actually was. I've become very skeptical of what I read in any media report.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>This is the organization that has MISPLACED the FRICKEN MOON videos!!!! The incompetence of that is beyond stunning. </i><br /><br />Complete nonsense, All the videoes, still photos, sound recordings, and samples collected during the Apollo missions have been kept and are available. All that was misplaced was one particular set of recordings.<br /><br />NASA fullfilled your 10 point checklist with Apollo.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Jon, thanks very much for your research into the truth.<br /><br />I will now read the newscientist article in full and see how it checks with the truth, and evaluate my opinion of NS <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[l3p3r]

Thanks for shedding some more light on the issue Jon!<br /><br />Does anyone know of a report where an actual biologist assesses the risk of a MSR mission?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">Complete nonsense, All the videoes, still photos, sound recordings, and samples collected during the Apollo missions have been kept and are available. All that was misplaced was one particular set of recordings.</font><br /><br />Complete Nonsense. Give me a break. Your posts says ALL videos. .. are available. But then you contradict yourself and say, well, OK one was misplaced. If one is MISPLACED, ALL are not AVAILABLE.!!! Plus, you leave out the most important part, the one that was MISPLACED was from APOLLO 11, and apparently, is the sharpest video taken on the moon. The first time humans, land on an ET body, and the sharpest video is MISPLACED. And you think that it acceptable? And you say my claim is complete nonsense.<br /><br />I have great respect for NASA, I even climbed Columbia Point (a mountain in Colo. renamed to honor the Columbia astronauts) with a NASA astronaut. But I see no reason for being an apologist, when they screw up that badly, I am not going to sweep it under the rug.<br /><br />Let me recap your post: <font color="yellow"> Complete nonsense . . . ALL videos are available . . .misplaced one set [of Apollo 11] recordings. </font><br /><br />I respect your posts and enjoy reading them, but you can do MUCH BETTER than that internally inconsistent post.<br /><br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

No contradiction at all. All videos survive. One particular recording of the Apollo 11 EVA has been misplaced. The EVA can be watched on copies of other recordings. That is why copies are made. <br /><br />I will wear the title of "NASA apologist" with pride.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The US National Academy of Sciences has published many reports that include reviews on the biological issues of MSR. For example:<br /><br />Mars Sample Return: Issues and Recommendations (1997)<br />http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5563&page=R1<br /><br />Preventing the Forward Contamination of Mars (2006)<br />http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11381&page=R1<br /><br />The Quarantine and Certification of Martian Samples (2002)<br />http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10138&page=R1<br /><br />Assessment of Mars Science and Mission Priorities (2003)<br />http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10715&page=R1<br /><br />Note these are multi-author reports with input from medical and biological specialists. They are about as high a technical level as you can get on the subject.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vulture2]

NASA's plans for biological safety in dealing with Mars organisms seem reasonable. Moreover, our immune systems are effective even against organisms we have never before encountered. It is hard to see how an organism so exotic it was not susceptible to immune attack could consider our bodies "food".<br /><br />Moreover, terrestrial pathogens have had millions of years to evolve the most effective and sophisticated biological weapons in their eternal battle with the defenses of host organisms, including ourselves. Even if life there exists, I would be suprised if Mars harbored anything half so dangerous. <br />