Boiling Water, not a "dust devil"

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

Look at this PICTURE As always, Media and NASA imbeciles get it wrong. Clearly, a phenomenon that was observed by the Spirit, is not understood correctly. It has nothing to do with either dust, or devil/a spinning air column/. It is a water vapor, rising from the patch of boiling water - as water boils at about 2C. The slow side wind explains the fact, that the vapor does not rise directly upwards but forms nice horn like shape. e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/spirit_dust_050312.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

tom_hobbes · Mar 13, 2005

Perhaps you'd better send the next rovers to Mars, those fools at JPL and NASA know nothing! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

douglas_clark · Mar 13, 2005

exrasense, You obviously have an extra sense! Looks to me like what these idiots at NASA said it was. But I don't have an extra sense. douglas

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

Fools do not get anything at all. For example, the reason that solar panels were cleaned up, was RAIN! Have you heard anything more ridiculous, than claim that dust "devil" cleaned solar panels! e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

alpha_taur1 · Mar 13, 2005

"Fools do not get anything at all" Very true. Wise men say only fools rush in. So this rising column from the pool of boiling water moved across the plain, cunningly disguising itself as a dust devil. Of course! That's why it can be seen in a different place on the plain after 2 minutes. Hey - do you suppose that this could be a new form of life? You know a pure energy based life-form, much more advanced than our own? "Have you heard anything more ridiculous, than claim that dust "devil" cleaned solar panels!" That is so funny ! It's like "The Dust Devil made me do it". The rain must be why there are blue flowers on Mars.

silylene old · Mar 13, 2005

A "patch of boiling water" simply would not boil fast enough to generate a vortex. The reason is that the change of state of water from liquid to gas requires an input of 40.7 kJ/mol (40.7 kJ per 18 g of liquid). Where is all of this heat going to come from ? When a liquid boils due to reduction of pressure under adiabatic conditions (An adiabatic process is one in which there is no exchange of heat with the surroundings; let's accept this as a first order reasonable approximation), the temperature of the liquid cools - because heat is withdrawn from the liquid to drive it into the gas phase (ah, that 40.7 kJ/mol again). As the liquid cools, it doesn't boil as fast, and the rate of vaporization lessens. Eventually, it can even cool enough that it freezes, and stays frozen (because enough heat is lost subliming the ice that it does not ever return to a liquid state). Now maybe if you suggested that this was a hot water fumarole or some such vent, then maybe it could form a vortex shaped vapor cloud, a la Old Faithful. But you didn't suggest this. Yep, those NASA imbeciles got it wrong. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

yevaud · Mar 13, 2005

Perhaps you'd better send the next rovers to Mars, those fools at JPL and NASA know nothing! Now there's an idea. Mind you, I'd like to be safely in a bunker, many miles away when you try to launch the things... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

alpha_taur1 · Mar 13, 2005

"When a liquid boils...." Exactly. There would be a substantial thermal anomaly anywhere that there was free water. The ground temperature would show a decrease in temperature and the atmosphere temperature would show an increase. Try telling that to those people who think they see mud on Mars. Incidentally the increased atmospheric temperature and the increased water saturation over a body of water or even brine/ice would also cause the column of atmosphere to rise. Coriolis force would cause - shall I say it? If course I'm not saying that ES is right <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

yevaud · Mar 13, 2005

Yes. Please don't. But it would be in a fixed location, column of low-pressure "steam" or not. Doesn't sound like it would be the right mechanism for cleaning the dust off of the solar panels (unless the rover drove directly over it). But low atmospheric pressure notwithstanding, winds on Mars can get up to several hundred km/hr. Sounds more likely... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

pocket_rocket · Mar 13, 2005

You're a funny guy. Some of us imbiciles appreciate your humor.

centsworth_II · Mar 13, 2005

I'll tell you what would be a real hoot. Now that the so-called "scientists" have had more than their share of time with the rovers, just hand them over to extrasense et al. What a sight it would be to watch them chasing after every monument, bone-shaped rock, mud puddle, worm hole and burrow on Mars! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />So this rising column from the pool of boiling water moved across the plain<hr /></blockquote> Who said it has moved, genius?

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />A "patch of boiling water" simply would not boil fast enough to generate a vortex<hr /></blockquote> Who said that a "vortex", the spinning air, was generated? Everyone parrots each other.... e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

yevaud · Mar 13, 2005

Yes, but unlike you, we don't post nonsense, and then lovingly wait for people to contradict it. Narcissistic, aren't you? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />But it would be in a fixed location, column of low-pressure "steam" or not. Doesn't sound like it would be the right mechanism for cleaning the dust off of the solar panels<hr /></blockquote> Here is my story, and I am sticking to it <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> : There was RAIN, which has cleaned up solar panels. Afer the rain, some water has been collected at some places, as it happens on Earth. With changes of the temperature and pressure, the conditions were achieved for boiling of that water. Consequently, one must expect several steams at about the same time in several different places. Which we do observe. The shape of the steam is not consistent with spinning air. It is consistent with low steady wind in one direction. e <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> s

odysseus145 · Mar 13, 2005

You haven't seen pictures of Spirit's solar panels lately have you? Let me make it easy for you: LINK Do you see the dust trails on the panels? This is consistant only with wind blowing the dust off. NOT RAIN. Could Spirit even survive rain? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Could Spirit even survive rain?<hr /></blockquote> It might be news to you, but droplets in Martian rain are about 1 micron or so e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

odysseus145 · Mar 13, 2005

>>droplets in Martian rain are about 1 micron or so And this cleaned the solar planels? I doubt it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

yevaud · Mar 13, 2005

Ok. You're right. And I suppose that, when you have no sense, any you happen to accidently acquire makes it "extra." "It's not even Wrong." Wolfgang Pauli about someone's screwy theory <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />>>droplets in Martian rain are about 1 micron or so<< And this cleaned the solar planels? I doubt it. <hr /></blockquote> But there is a lot of them.. With some modest wind that goes with the rain, it is actually perfect cleaning stuff e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

silylene old · Mar 13, 2005

Water droplets 1 micron in size have a very large surface/volume ratio. They would evaporate almost immediately, unless the humidity was 100% (which it isn't even close!). Also droplets 1 micron in size would take a long time to settle to the surface, moving very slowly, assuming they did not evaporate, even in the low pressure Martian atmosphere (a terrible assumption as I described in the above paragraph). Consider how long it takes 1 micron sized dust (which has a 3x higher density than water) to settle! Finally the "droplets", assuming they did not evaporate, would fall as a snow, not as a liquid. The air on Mars is very cold once you get more than a meter off the surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Water droplets 1 micron in size have a very large surface/volume ratio. They would evaporate almost immediately, unless the humidity was 100% (which it isn't even close!). <hr /></blockquote> IT IS 100% WHEN IT IS RAINING! <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />moving very slowly<hr /></blockquote> They fell down very fast, due to low atmosphere density. You know nothing about Mars atmosphere dynamics, so do a little of research before you claim things e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s

yevaud · Mar 13, 2005

Humidity is not 100% "when raining." That's not how it works. And you do know about "Martian atmospheric dynamics?" That's laughable...pardon me while I go and giggle hysterically... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

alpha_taur1 · Mar 13, 2005

Getting off the subject, which is probably a good idea, it's interesting to contemplate how Opportunity's solar panels were cleaned. I believe that frost would tend to nucleate, or draw into a point as it subliminated. This would draw the dust particles into the centre to form a small freeze-dried deposit of dust at the centre of each frost particle. These tiny deposits would be easily disturbed by the wind, thus effectively cleaning the panels. Extrasense - Go back to the Mark Carey Forum. They love you there.

extrasense · Mar 13, 2005

You, s...............! get out of my thread fast! Start your own thread, will see if anyone is interested in talking to you. ES

Boiling Water, not a "dust devil"

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