Can we know that space is 'curved'

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">Im goign to say you have no experience in General Relativity and say your wrong. Im also going to say your wrong because I just finished studying general relativity 2 weeks ago in school.</font><br /><br />Stating that I have no experience, without supplying evidence to satisfy his/her argument, and then stating that he/she is the foremost expert in general relativity because he/she attended some course in never land is irrelevant. I am not very impressed. <br /><br />Why does this individual think that I care if he/she believes me or not? I am not trying to win some popularity contest here.<br /><br />Spelling is relevant.

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">Spelling is relevant.</font><br /><br />That may be true. Perhaps the author can't fix his or her mistakes. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> A likely saying coming from someone jabbering about little things such as other people's spelling is this: <font color="yellow">I am not trying to win some popularity contest here.</font> True. It would be another thing to be <b>concerned</b> about someone's spelling. Even that would be unecessary - unless you're a spelling teacher.

 

[jatslo]

I guess if I wanted to be popular like you think you are, then all I would have to do is agree with everything that your stating as fact. Then everything would be peachy fine, right? Jatslo don't play that game! If I think you are performing badly, or behaving badly, I’m going to strike. Its relative, i.e. spelling, evidence, citations, etc, are all relevant!?!?!

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Spelling Nazis? On "teh intarweb?"<br /><br />The spelling mistake you may have "thunked" you observed is a very common problem when posting on "teh intarweb." Basically, the keyboard refresh and lag on the screen can produce transposed characters even though the typist may have spelled the word correctly. I believe the most commonly mispelled word is "teh." (the)<br /><br />IOW, big deal.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Jatslo - .. If I think you are performing badly, or behaving badly, I’m going to strike. ..</font><br /><br />Yet... <font color="yellow">Jatslo - ....Jatslo don't play that game!...</font><br /><br />Tsk, tsk. Shame on you. <waggles a finger /> Grammar class is down the hall to the left.<br /><br />Leave off throwing stones at "speeling erros" and have done with it. It's common courtesy to forgive a few grammatical errors in the many casual posts on "teh intarweb." There is no "I won!" by basing your argument on correcting someone's spelling. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Please, continue with your discussion of the "Fabric of Spacetime."<br /><br />Very interesting.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[jatslo]

You crack me up.<br /><br />Space-time is constant, The fabric in space-time is curved. Here's a particle unification source for those that would like to discuss fabric.<br /><br />http://www.grandunification.com/hypertext/Balls_of_Light_3.html<br /><br />For the record, I don't agree with some of the theory, and I also think it is a incomplete model.

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">jatslo - ..Space-time is constant, The fabric in space-time is curved...</font><br /><br />Why is the fabric of space-time curved yet, space-time itself is constant?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[jatslo]

For starters, I said the Fabric IN space-time.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Why is the fabric of space-time curved yet, space-time itself is constant?</font><br /><br />Gravity is the most abundant force, and nothing can escape, including light.<br /><br />Get it? "nothing can escape" space-time is nothing; therefore, space-time can escape.<br /><br />How about vacuum? Does gravity affect high, and low pressures?

 

[kmarinas86]

Exactly so packet! The existence of massive planets stars, and other celestial objects account for some of the distortion of space-time. Smaller objects including life cause other distortion. However, the space-time we are talking about is the "vacuum" of space. If "dark" energy density varies between the stars and galaxies (i.e. quintessence), that would mean there are variations in space-time at the quantum (or quintessence) scale! <br /><br /><<<<<br />edit: SOLAR SYSTEM!!!! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Quintessence is gravitationally repulsive:<br />http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=quintessence+gravitational+repulsive<br /><br />If quintessence is <i>really</i> a gravitationally repulsive force then that would suggest that stars and galaxies appear farther than they would otherwise appear to be (without its existence) - acting like a concave lens. Conversely, massive objects such as galaxy superclusters are good convex lenses.<br /><br />I think the differences between:<br />1) general relativity and netwonian dyanamics<br />2) newtonian dyanamics and thermodynamics<br />3) thermodynamics and quantum mechanics<br />...are analagous to the differences between:<br />4) quantum mechanics and what I will call "quintessential dynamics"<br /><br />This seems to be the order of emergent properties in what should be a universe that emerges from itself (i.e. fractal universe).

 

[Saiph]

kmarinas: Congratulations on your promotion to "solar system". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

We need a tool that measures gravitational constants, so that we can put all this speculation to rest. For example, if I copied the planet Earth, and then tried to connect the two planets together at the North Poles, would the two planets repel one another?<br /><br />Have you ever heard of run away Stars, or planets?<br /><br />Here’s another example. If I had two Stars’, one massive, and the other dwarfed in comparison, and if I tried to connect the two at their North Poles, wouldn’t the smaller Star get ejected?<br /><br />Lets say that they do repel, for the sake of argument. Where does E = MC ² come into the picture, or string theory for that mater? What is repelling the masses?<br /><br />GRAVITY: one negative; the other is positive.

 

[spacechump]

"Here’s another example. If I had two Stars’, one massive, and the other dwarfed in comparison, and if I tried to connect the two at their North Poles, wouldn’t the smaller Star get ejected? "<br /><br />No! They pull themselves together for one massively large explosion before the cores of each collapsed back on themselves to most likely form a neutron star.<br /><br />"Lets say that they do repel, for the sake of argument."<br /><br />Ok, I argue that that effect has never been observed regardless of how much you think these rouge stars are evidence of it.<br /><br />"Where does E = MC ² come into the picture, or string theory for that mater? What is repelling the masses?<br /><br />GRAVITY: one negative; the other is positive."<br /><br />OHHHHHHH....so THAT'S why a bolling ball flies off into space when I drop it! <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[siarad]

Hm a resurrection!<br />I can't even remember posting this but then at my age I forget a lot. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>the space-time we are talking about is the "vacuum" of space.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />That's kinda what I mean, sorry I'm not a scientist & use the wrong words.<br />It's the variation of view engendered by speed that worries me. As we don't know our speed but seem to assume it's zero i.e. we're the centre of the Universe then our measurements assume straight lines. Now if I shot off into space at high speed I would be the centre of the Universe but those <i>different</i> straight lines would give me a different view of the Universe. Stars previously 10 degrees apart would now appear say only 5 degrees apart so does their Redshift change to give a consistant distance.<br />Are <i>both</i> right, it seems a twins paradox of the entire Universe.

 

[paintwoik]

It is not space (nothing) that is curved, but the representation of it that is. You can't make a representation of anything without a curve somewhere within the representation. Take a sphere as an example and for the sake of discussion lets say there is nothing inside or outside it. The Sphere stands for the representation of space and must have a curve (curves) to be an actual entity that exist. There is no representation that can be had using a straight line approach. We can say that space is curved providing that we are using it's representation and calling it space.<br /><br />A photon that passes near a star will follow a curved path. This is an interaction with all the representations that make up the star. The gravity of the star stands for the extension of the representations, and all representations are curved. Thus interactions will tend to follow those curves.<br /><br />

 

[siarad]

If space is curved then the angles of a triangle add up to less than 180 degrees as navigating on the Globe of the Earth. Thus when viewing the Universe we can't know where stars are or how far away using triangulation. I've given 2 examples to show different views & worse wouldn't this appear to change the constant of gravity as looking back at Earth would show it closer to the Sun than before.

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">jatslo - Here’s another example. If I had two Stars’, one massive, and the other dwarfed in comparison, and if I tried to connect the two at their North Poles, wouldn’t the smaller Star get ejected? <br /><br />Lets say that they do repel, for the sake of argument. Where does E = MC ² come into the picture, or string theory for that mater? What is repelling the masses? <br /><br />GRAVITY: one negative; the other is positive. </font><br /><br />What would make the North poles of the planets repel each other?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">Lets say that they do repel, for the sake of argument.</font><br /><br />Big mistake<br /><br />They don't repel because of gravity =P<br /><br />seriously!<br /><br />Negative magnetic charge isn't antigravity...<br /><br />Actually, the stars would repel each other only if their magnetic charges were unrealistically strong.

 

[jurgens]

like I was saying, we are either talking to a crackpot or a kid who hasn't taken enough of his physics classes.<br /><br />Jastlo do some more studying on Traditionally accepted scientific theory, then you can go off on a tanget into these other radical theories.

 

[gfpaladin]

<i> Actually, the stars would repel each other only if their magnetic charges were unrealistically strong. </i><br /><br />If you treat the stars as two bar magents, and you are bringing them together, long side to long side, positive pole to positive pole, and let go of one, a slight misalignment can result in the loose magnet flipping around to bring the negative pole to the positive pole of the held magnet...the prefered energy configuuration.

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">If you treat the stars as two bar magents, and you are bringing them together, long side to long side, positive pole to positive pole, and let go of one, a slight misalignment can result in the loose magnet flipping around to bring the negative pole to the positive pole of the held magnet...the prefered energy configuuration.</font><br /><br />Oh that's right, the smaller star would probably just flip around and then join the other star (after brief moments of repelling each other and signs of disalignment).... t.k.s. for the correction! =)

 

[Saiph]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>We need a tool that measures gravitational constants<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Sure, I'll use a bathroom scale. It measures the gravitational attraction between me and the earth. Done to high enough precision, and knowing our respective masses and distances, we'll get G from:<br /><br />f=G*M*m / R^2<br /><br />We know M and m and f and R....we solve for G.<br /><br /><br />Gravity is only attractive, it won't repel, no matter how you position the objects This can be, and has been, proved by using various several ton spheres in just such arrangements and very precise scales. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[gfpaladin]

No problem...I have not read all of this thread but...I suspect that at the distances initially involved, gravitation would be the primary force to take into account, not magnetism...

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">If you treat the stars as two bar magents, and you are bringing them together, long side to long side, positive pole to positive pole, and let go of one, a slight misalignment can result in the loose magnet flipping around to bring the negative pole to the positive pole of the held magnet...the prefered energy configuuration.</font><br /><br />Special circumstances will repel the smaller masses. For example, if I waved my magic wand, I could push the smaller mass, before the smaller mass had a chance to flip. We are talking about something a little more massive than a couple of magnets here, I think. Besides the Star would be long gone before it had a chance to flip. <br />

 

[paintwoik]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>If space is curved then the angles of a triangle add up to less than 180 degrees as navigating on the Globe of the Earth.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I'm not actually saying that space is curved. I'm saying that it's representation is. Essentially..... there is no space without representation.

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">Gravity is only attractive, it won't repel, no matter how you position the objects This can be, and has been, proved by using various several ton spheres in just such arrangements and very precise scales.</font><br /><br />There is a heck of lot more than gravity going on. I am curious as to how you can test this theorem. How the heck did you get several ton spheres into space? Maybe there is some dark matter within the core of everything that acts like a great attracter? Better yet, if I found some great attracter, I could bring it to Earth and make a weightless spacecraft. I could then surf the gravitational waves of the universe at infinite speeds.<br />

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">What would make the North poles of the planets repel each other?</font><br /><br />The electromagnetic emissions probably wouldn’t do the trick by itself, or at least not when considering two equal masses, so I thought I would throw in some dark matter. For example, for the sake of arguing, let’s say that both of the planet cores are comprised of x amount of dark matter, in which dark matter repels dark matter, and attracts the traditional matter. Now we have two forces repelling each other at their North Poles, as opposed to one force, which x+emi is a greater force combined than the traditional gravity by itself is.<br /><br />It’s a really different picture when your talking about radically different masses, because the gravity of one mass is greater than the EMI and dark matter of the smaller mass; however, the EMI trick might still work ;o)