Casimir Effect as a Space Drive?

[thnkrx]

<p>It was suggested might be better luck in this subforum.</p><p>&nbsp;A few weeks back I was reading a somewhat old thriller with a heavy science twist.&nbsp; The gist was that it might be possible to extract significant amounts of vacuum point or zero point energy via a varient of the Casimir effect.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;As I understand it, the Casimir Effect, possibly along with some aspects of cavitation, is among the very few legit manifestations of zero point energy.&nbsp; Most examples of the Casimir effect involve only a single set of plates, or maybe a few sets.&nbsp; What the author of the book proposed was hundreds of thousands of pairs of plates, each basically submicroscopic, with the intent being to 'jump start' a zero point chain reaction that would ultimately be self sustaining.&nbsp; I have doubts about that part of it.</p><p>However, the idea of using a very great many - hundreds of thousands, if not millions -&nbsp;of pairs of plates operating in a coordinated repeating sequence in the vacuum of space might be an effective means of propulsion.&nbsp; Now, yes, I do see this as be a significant engineering challenge...to put it mildly.&nbsp; Among other things,&nbsp;I could envision damage to the plates after a few&nbsp;repititions (maybe have some of them 'offline' for replacement or repair?), but even so it&nbsp;might actually&nbsp;be worth a thought.&nbsp;</p>

 

[UncertainH]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>it might be possible to extract significant amounts of vacuum point or zero point energy via a varient of the Casimir effect.&nbsp;Posted by thnkrx</DIV></p><p>Haven't heard of any sucess yet. One of the problems it seems is that you can get mechanical energy out (ie the plates move together) but then you have to do&nbsp;work &nbsp;to separate the plates again so in effect you gain nothing. Here is an article on the subject</p><p>http://www.calphysics.org/articles/Davis_STAIF06.pdf&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[thnkrx]

<p>Hmmm....maybe if the plate pairs were linked together...</p><p>&nbsp;...so that one set of plates coming together would also seperate another pair of plates.&nbsp; Might not be much of a net gain energy wise with that though.&nbsp; Still...with hundreds of thousands of plates, you might get enough to make a modest source of long term propulsion...</p><p>...of course, there is that pesky second law of thermodynamics, but, if I read the article correctly, some zero point energy schemes can actually get get around this.&nbsp; The authors appeared to be credentialled, experienced, and ...realistically opticimistic.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[why06]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It was suggested might be better luck in this subforum.&nbsp;A few weeks back I was reading a somewhat old thriller with a heavy science twist.&nbsp; The gist was that it might be possible to extract significant amounts of vacuum point or zero point energy via a varient of the Casimir effect.&nbsp; &nbsp;As I understand it, the Casimir Effect, possibly along with some aspects of cavitation, is among the very few legit manifestations of zero point energy.&nbsp; Most examples of the Casimir effect involve only a single set of plates, or maybe a few sets.&nbsp; What the author of the book proposed was hundreds of thousands of pairs of plates, each basically submicroscopic, with the intent being to 'jump start' a zero point chain reaction that would ultimately be self sustaining.&nbsp; I have doubts about that part of it.However, the idea of using a very great many - hundreds of thousands, if not millions -&nbsp;of pairs of plates operating in a coordinated repeating sequence in the vacuum of space might be an effective means of propulsion.&nbsp; Now, yes, I do see this as be a significant engineering challenge...to put it mildly.&nbsp; Among other things,&nbsp;I could envision damage to the plates after a few&nbsp;repititions (maybe have some of them 'offline' for replacement or repair?), but even so it&nbsp;might actually&nbsp;be worth a thought.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by thnkrx</DIV></p><p>Maybe Im confused, but I thought the Casimir Effect was used in Ion drives? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Maybe Im confused, but I thought the Casimir Effect was used in Ion drives? <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>No.&nbsp; The Casimir effect is a subtle effect that has to do with the quantum vacuum.&nbsp; No one knows of any means of extracting any meaningful amount of energy from that effect, at least not yet and maybe not ever.&nbsp; Ion drives are simply a means of accelerating charged particles to very high velocities using electromagnetic fields.&nbsp; It yields extremely high Isp, but it is not very efficient from an energy perspective.&nbsp; It finds application in low thrust, high Isp applications like deep space probes. <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>No.&nbsp; The Casimir effect is a subtle effect that has to do with the quantum vacuum.&nbsp; No one knows of any means of extracting any meaningful amount of energy from that effect, at least not yet and maybe not ever.&nbsp; Ion drives are simply a means of accelerating charged particles to very high velocities using electromagnetic fields.&nbsp; It yields extremely high Isp, but it is not very efficient from an energy perspective.&nbsp; It finds application in low thrust, high Isp applications like deep space probes. <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Vacuum energy eh? </p><p>Speaking about vacuum energy I always wondered how vacuums work. Say I'm in space and I have a glass jar full of air. The air rushes out of the jar when I take off the top. I could understand if it was just the natural diffussion of the air, but a force seems to be pulling of forcing it out of the jar. I don't understand that. Its the same amount of air in it if it was on earth say at 1 atm of pressure but when it gets into space suddenly the samed density of air causes a greater magnitude of pressure on the bottle. Thats not just random movements of air molecules its another force entirely... </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Vacuum energy eh? Speaking about vacuum energy I always wondered how vacuums work. Say I'm in space and I have a glass jar full of air. The air rushes out of the jar when I take off the top. I could understand if it was just the natural diffussion of the air, but a force seems to be pulling of forcing it out of the jar. I don't understand that. Its the same amount of air in it if it was on earth say at 1 atm of pressure but when it gets into space suddenly the samed density of air causes a greater magnitude of pressure on the bottle. Thats not just random movements of air molecules its another force entirely... <br />Posted by <strong>why06</strong></DIV><br /><br />First let me assume that you understand the difference between the vacuum energy discussed earlier and vacumm rushing out of the jar.&nbsp; The air rushes out of the jar for just the reason you stated, the natural "diffusion".&nbsp; There's nothing pulling the air out when you open it in a vacuum (or anywhere else) it's just the random thermal motion of the air molecules pushing against each other that empty the jar.&nbsp; The relative lack of "push back" on the vacuum side than makes the air rush out faster when you open into a vacuum.&nbsp; Your first instinct was correct. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[origin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Vacuum energy eh? Speaking about vacuum energy I always wondered how vacuums work. Say I'm in space and I have a glass jar full of air. The air rushes out of the jar when I take off the top. I could understand if it was just the natural diffussion of the air, but a force seems to be pulling of forcing it out of the jar. I don't understand that. Its the same amount of air in it if it was on earth say at 1 atm of pressure but when it gets into space suddenly the samed density of air causes a greater magnitude of pressure on the bottle. Thats not just random movements of air molecules its another force entirely... <br />Posted by why06</DIV><br /><br />It is kinda like a jar full of bees, when you take the lid off they fly out and go everywhere, nothing is pulling them out they are flying around in the jar and the ones that were hitting the lid go flying out once the lid is removed.&nbsp; It happens very fast for air because the atoms are moving very fast.</p><p>Edited to add - another way to look at this is differntial pressure.&nbsp; Opening a jar of atmospheric air in space is the same as opening a jar full of air at sea level that has been pressurized to 14.7&nbsp;psi.&nbsp; That is about 1/2 the&nbsp;pressure in an average car tire.&nbsp; The&nbsp;force on the lid is about - </p><p>Assume a&nbsp;mayo&nbsp;jar with a 3 inch lid</p><p>(1.5^2) X pi X 14.7 = <strong>103 pounds of pressure on the lid</strong>&nbsp;</p><p>You can see the air is going to rush out big time - if your not careful the lid could smack you in the face.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[UncertainH]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>No one knows of any means of extracting any meaningful amount of energy from that effect, at least not yet and maybe not ever.&nbsp;Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;Found this: (U.S. Patent 7,379,286)</p><p>I doubt that they have actually created a device but it is interesting that a patent has been issued<br /></p>