Caught In The Act - Water Seepage Photo's!

[conradk1]

Just a little a/b with water seepage caught in the act (complete with sun reflecting of the water).<br /><br />http://64.70.34.77/runningwater2.gif

 

[JonClarke]

Which planet? Which spacecraft? Which instrument? What wavelengths? What scale? What is the context? What is the image source?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[thechemist]

I must say Jon, you give the impression of a very thirsty guy <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Perhaps so, given where I was working the last two weeks had ground temperatures of above 52 degrees (the limit of the thermometers), and humidities of 90%. There was lots of cool clean water in the irrigation canals and the local river, unfortunately there were these big scaly crocs in them. The guys who were working the hardest were going the nanotem survey and were drinking 8 litres of water in the course of a 10 hour shift. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<i>Which planet? Which spacecraft? Which instrument? What wavelengths? What scale? What is the context? What is the image source?</i><br /><br />There you go again, Jon, getting all hung up on details.....<img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[jatslo]

That is an interesting animation, in which I hope to see more of in the coming months. Like JonClarke said, there is a whole lot of speculation involved with circumstantial evidence, so with that said: There appears to be a shoreline, but that reflection could be frost as a result of percolation. Would anyone else like to speculate in this regard?<br /><br />We need more comparison analysis’s, because this is fascinating stuff.<br />

 

[conradk1]

JonClarke, here is that info.<br /><br />Planet: Mars<br />Camera: THEMIS<br /><br />Duration 79 s <br />Image Size 7584x512x1 <br />Bands 3 <br />Orbit 13320 <br />Solar Longitude 129.264 <br />Sample Resolution 0.040 km <br />Line Resolution 0.039 km <br />Pixel Aspect Ratio 0.993 <br />North Azimuth 241.612 <br />Solar Azimuth 173.261 <br />Phase Angle 72.982 <br />Emission Angle 0.062 <br />Incidence Angle 72.970 <br />Local Time 19.331 <br />Slant Distance 450.388 km

 

[yevaud]

Has the thought of wind-driven sand and dust occurred to you?<br /><br />Which, by the way, is well-known to occur on Mars. Or haven't you ever heard of the seasonal dust storms that occur there? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[conradk1]

Steven, yea but that stuff doesn't normally reflect sunlight the way liquid does.

 

[yevaud]

I beg to differ. It most certainly can and does. <br /><br />Unless you have direct experience in the field of Remote Sensing, you don't know what you're talking about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[conradk1]

Yevaud, so should we just rule out everything else? <br /><br />P.S. Make sure you scroll down and look at the patch at the bottom of the image.

 

[yevaud]

I already have. I can also assure you that I am more than familiar with more than a little about satellite imagery, including THEMIS. And SPOT and MSS, etc.<br /><br />Merely because an area's reflectance changes doesn't mean it's water by any means. As well, when you provided information (as requested by Jon) on this imagery, there is still no information as to what bands are being imaged. Three, yes, but nothing on what wavelengths.<br /><br />That being said, really all you're telling me is that an area's characteristics have changed over a great deal of time, but nothing further.<br /><br />How you can determine it's water - when those changes are quite typical of wind-driven sand - is a question. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Thanks mate, do have have the image numbers and links to the originals? there are an aweful lot of THEMIS images to search through otherwise!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[conradk1]

Yevaud, this is not being published in a newspaper. It is being posted to this message board for discussion and dissecting so your replies are very welcome. <br /><br />Band 3 was used for this image and unfortunately I have not been able to find any clear images from this time frame in any other bands.<br /><br />You are correct, I am not an expert at reading satellite imagery which is why I am going to ask if the blowing sand observation would persist over a time frame of a week or if it would look like this only while it was blowing.<br /><br />Also, as you are familiar with satellite imagery I would like to know what you make of the image below (the |__|_|_| shape in the center and the area above it that looks like it's been graded into a hillside). It is from the Mars Orbiter Camera Image Gallery. Scaled pixel width is 3.23 meters and the view is almost directly from the top.<br /><br />Thanks. <br /><br />http://64.70.34.77/ushape.gif

 

[yevaud]

Sorry I seem a bit prickly about it. This is a repeated theme here - but you seem more reasonable than most. My apologies.<br /><br />I'm not, per se, an "expert" at imagery, though I have more than a little training in remote sensing and image analysis. <br /><br />This is why I asked if there was further information on which specific bands are imaged. These could be composites of several visible bands, or may not. Got to know this to say anything further, except what's shown really does fit the morphology that wind-driven sand would show over time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

that link on the first page, the image, looks like a beach in florida or something. that is mars?! <br /><br />the only caveat is that it is impossible for water to stand on mars for any reasonable duration. it would sublime immediately into vapor if percolated from underground. the image could be an ice sheet, however. it is very compelling an image. scary.

 

[conradk1]

bonzelite, do you mean before or after Wilma. But seriously, yes that is Mars. <br /><br />The atmospheric pressure at this location is about 9 or 10 millibars at this time of the year allowing water to remain in a liquid state to around 44.6 degF. The problem is that it is also supposed to be pretty darn cold. So mystery!<br /><br />If your interested check this out: http://64.70.34.77/<br />I tend to believe that there may be some ground warming in the area causing this.

 

[conradk1]

JonClarke, <br /><br />Here are some links to the THEMIS images:<br /><br />http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V12983033.html<br />http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V13320002.html<br />http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V13944001.html<br /><br />The visual cues from the Suns reflecting of the ice on the cliffs makes this I think even more like a reflection.

 

[bonzelite]

well at certain times of the year, daytime temps on mars can be as high as 60F. <br /><br />no hurricane wilma, though.

 

[bonzelite]

conrad, that is some very compelling stuff. how could that be possible? it seems like what you indicated is at least, in part, true. the steam i can see. the river is nearly unbelievable but appears to be that. it is spread over a large area and more diffuse than a narrow-channeled 'river.' at the very least there is definite demarcations of different surface textures. the frost abruptly stops at the banks of this "river." or whatever it is. <br /><br />maybe mars is like yellowstone park.

 

[conradk1]

bonzelite, if it is like Yellowstone Park maybe we can call it Redstone Park (ok everyone your supposed to laugh now).<br /><br />Since I posted my first post regarding the possibility of a river and put up the Mars Oasis web site I have noticed a number of new really tight THEMIS images focusing on different parts of the "river area". <br />

 

[JonClarke]

Thanks for the base images.<br /><br />I can't see anything that looks like a channel, only patches that change in albedo. So nothing in the morphology suggests liquid water.<br /><br />Also, we are looking at something at very high latitudes that is actually on the permanent north polar cap. Temperatures never rise above -60 degrees and are generally well below this. This is below the freezing point of even the most concentrated brines. <br /><br />A much more likely explanation is that we are looking at changes in albedo caused by sublimation of a winter coat of CO2 (snow, frost) ice off the underlying permanent H2O ice cap.<br /><br />To get surface layers of films of in such a location you would need either a head source (e.g. hydrothermal, volcanic) or some really dark material to absorb solar radiation. As yet I don't see any sign of either.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

any links? <br /><br />so it is entirely possible for mars to be geologically active beyond what we may initially think. i am still not fully convinced of liquid water. but being the area in question is several miles below "sea level" where the pressure is higher, just maybe. just maybe. <br /><br />it seems some of the more interesting areas on mars are off-limits for actual missions, so they will never really be scrutinized as they should be. at least probably not in our lifetimes. that's a shame.

 

[bonzelite]

what is striking about the images is the apparent "flow" patterns of something eroding the surface. and it is tempting to project onto the scene our own watery world's traits. <br /><br />if that is flowing water, it would need to remain super-heated for miles in order to exist in such freezing conditions. yes?

 

[maxtheknife]

Yevaud: <font color="yellow">I have more than a little training in <b>remote sensing</b> and image analysis. </font><br /><br />I had no idea! You're a trained psychic?!<br />