Chang'e 1: Chinese moon probe mission

no_way · Nov 22, 2007

thats somewhat off topic, but there's a legend that Soviets sent up a few "first cosmonauts" before Gagarin came back alive. I guess theres no way of telling whether its true or not, but people who i know that served in Soviet military said its entirely plausible, according to how they conducted their business.

anthmartian · Nov 22, 2007

No Way : I fail to see how this topic was heading off topic until your post, and the comments you made? I myself have been involved in discussions regarding the direction you are taking this topic in, several times here. I think we should keep things at Chang'e 1. I have been involved in off topic ramblings before, i had to step back and see it was ruining things. So, my advice is do the same, or start a topic on Soviet practice in manned flight. Andrew : I hope what you're saying is not the case. But it would not surprise me at all. I do assume the Chinese space program in general will be as much about prestige, self promotion, and saving face where possible if things go wrong. I am keeping my fingers crossed, new data on the Moons H2O, and as a ( not very good and very amateur ) 3D computer artist, i am looking forward to seeing the 3d imagery produced by Chang'e 1. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

no_way · Nov 22, 2007

for chrissake, take it easy. I was basically making the same point as you ( about saving face ), with drawing a parallel. If all tangential remarks are entirely prohibited the entire discussion becomes kinda monotonous.

3488 · Nov 22, 2007

Hi Anthmartian, I really hope that I am very wrong on this indeed. But I have actually been to China & some of the things regarding Health & Safety, etc, would make your hair curl. Petrol tankers, with bald tyres with chunks out of them, my wife's apartment block, no lighting, no handrails, uneven steps in the stairwells, etc. Having said that though, I know from first hand experience that the Chinese people are extremely highly intelligent, motivated & work hard. I hope Chang'e 1 represents the latter experience. Lets hope that all is well. Just concerned by the lengthy period to getting the craft activated in Lunar orbit. Just struck me a bit weird. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

anthmartian · Nov 22, 2007

I am taking it easy. It sounded like you accused 3488 of going off topic when you stated "thats somewhat off topic". I did not feel it was, and pointed out your post was. My words were more out of caution, than knowing your intent, i am sorry. It is just that i have seen that subject take over many space message boards before. It would not want it to happen again. So it was with hind sight that i wanted to step in and say that. I hope no bad feelings have come from it. I also hope we will have much to talk about here without it becoming monotonous. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

anthmartian · Nov 22, 2007

Andrew : It could as you say be because of a covered up troublesome start start to the mission. It could be that the images so far captured have been less than impressive. It could also be because of the amazing success and high profile of Selene, that the Chinese do not want direct comparisons between Chang'e 1 and the JAXA probe. As we have all stated here, we suspect China of having slightly more on their agenda here than pure science. Comparisons to a superior Japanese mission at the height of its publicity could be something they wish to avoid, especially if all is not well with imaging capability right now for example. I have heard such stories Andrew about China. I just hope that China and the world can one day be a better place. I certainly feel that joining a world wide exploration of space can only help matters. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

yoda9999 · Nov 23, 2007

The Chinese never said they would turn on the science instruments immediately. Here is a quote from an article on Nov 8, right after it achieved orbit: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-11/08/content_6239061.htm "The probe is expected to send back the first batch of data and activate all its scientific instruments later this month," CNSA spokesman Li Guoping told a press conference Wednesday. "After entering the working orbit, the probe will further adjust its orbit and start testing its instruments. And the ground system will process data into the first three-dimensional moon picture later this month," Li said

astrowikizhang · Nov 23, 2007

The impression I have, is that this craft is no where near as capable as Clementine, Smart 1, SELENE & the upcoming Lunar Reconaissance Orbiter. ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ï¼ Detailed specifications of the science instruments are not available so far. But there is some rumor says the CCD stereo camera Chang'e-1 carries has a resolution at about 120 meter per pixel. I think that's at about the same level of Clementine's. News media has advertised that Chang'e-1 will generate the global 3D map of Moon first time in the history. And the 3D data will be collected by just one camera, not a traditional stereo cameras. Still not sure how the camera works

3488 · Nov 23, 2007

I agree completely with you Anthmartian. Just think, as you say, the first images have been less than impressive & also with the spectacular results so far from SELENE, some time before the lunar orbital mission has officially started, I think the Chinese are playing safe. Once their instruments are fully calibrated, etc, than the situation will change. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Nov 23, 2007

Hi astrowikizhang, Yes the 120 metre resolution you quoted, is very similar to Clementine (which was 100 metres). The camera works by taking two images, one shortly after the other, both images are then transmitted as ONE image. Any craft with a camera can do this, but usually two images are transmitted. Chang'e 1, is capable of combining / stacking the two images together as a single 3D image, prior to transmission. AFAIK, this is not new. The now silent Mars Global Surveyor did this, as does the Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter. I think SELENE can also do this, as can the Mercury bound MESSENGER. The advantage of this approach, is that obviously it reduces the requirements of the recieving ground stations, because two images are being received as one. Also both images can still be separated after being received to create two 2D images. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

astrowikizhang · Nov 23, 2007

Hi Andrew, A Chang'e mission expert said on a media Q&A that the camera "looks" at the same object from three different angles. He also said that requires 5 "scan-lines" to construct the 3D image. So I just guess it is not a traditional stereo camera you mentioned, which uses two cameras to take two images from slightly different angles. Added more details about Chang'e-1 stereo camera: The camera is a push-broom type imager same as SELENE's TC. TC has 2 separated telescopes looking at forward and backward directions respectively, each has a one-dimensional detector (CCD). Chang'e camera has only one telescope and one CCD. The camera should has a very wide field-of-view, looking forward, down, and backward. There are 3 scan-lines on a single big (1024X1024) CCD. This design was said to be operating just like 3 telescopes with 3 CCDs and the structure would be more compact, smaller, and lighter.

3488 · Nov 23, 2007

Hi astrowikizhang. Thank you very much for the technical information on Chang'e 1. If its works well, the Chinese will have given the world something very special indeed, but in a very different way to Japan's SELENE. I maybe was not clear in my last post (so no surprises there), I did not mean to say two cameras. The MGS, MRO, Messenger, have one camera that can store two images (one taken shortly after the other) as that gives the image the stereo effect required for 3D images. Two cameras were not required. The landers, such as Viking, Pathfinder, MERs, etc do have twin cameras, taking the same scene, but from slightly differing viewpoints. Obviously the landers are static (Vikings & Pathfinder were static anyway), when taking imagery to prevent blurring. The MERs, have the advantage, that if one camera fails, provided the other is still working, can move slightly sideways & obtain a second image, therefore acting as a proxy second camera. The orbiters at the altitudes they orbit at, stereo cameras are not of any real use as they could not be far enough apart. The differnce with MGS, MRO, Selene, Chang'e 1 is that they can transmit stereo images. I did think Chang'e 1 would use the 'Push Broom' imaging method. Thus Chang'e 1 follows MGS, MRO, SELENE in this respect. News update from Beijing, first image to be released on Monday 26th November 2007. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

astrowikizhang · Nov 24, 2007

Found the detailed info about scientific objectives and payload of Chang'e-1 www.ias.ac.in/jess/dec2005/ilc-25.pdf

alokmohan · Nov 24, 2007

Our neighbour China doing so well.

astrowikizhang · Nov 25, 2007

First image was released: http://i1.sinaimg.cn/dy/c/2007-11-26/U2240P1T1D14387998F21DT20071126094615.jpg Add image details: Image width 280 km, height 460 km, 57 degree E to 83 degree E, 54 degree S to 70 degree S.

china82 · Nov 26, 2007

China published the first picture of the moon captured by Chang'e I on Monday morning, marking the success of the country's first lunar probe project. Image: *High Resolution ^_^http://magazine.sina.com.cn/flash/sinand/untitled.jpg Official ceremony: http://i2.sinaimg.cn/dy/c/2007-11-26/U1398P1T1D14388558F1394DT20071126134325.jpg http://i2.sinaimg.cn/dy/c/2007-11-26/U1398P1T1D14388558F1395DT20071126134418.jpg http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20071126/001320d1239308b49cb707.jpg

JonClarke · Nov 26, 2007

Awesome! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

china82 · Nov 26, 2007

A comparison between the image captured by China and NASA: NASA http://www.google.com/moon/#lat=-62.062733&lon=74.750976&zoom=5&apollo= China http://magazine.sina.com.cn/flash/sinand/untitled.jpg

3488 · Nov 26, 2007

Hi China82, Welcome to SDC. Yes, I agree completely, that is an amazing image strip indeed. Chang'e 1 is definately working very well indeed. The detail in that image is quite amazing, similar to Clementine. My wife is Chinese, from Zhanjiang City, Guangdong Province, China. I assume you are Chinese?? I am British btw. Once again, thank you very much for sharing those images with us. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

anthmartian · Nov 26, 2007

It looks nice! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank you for that. I would not mind that framed picture on my wall either! I am afraid i am not well up on the capability of Chang'e 1. Does this image represent a full res image? Or do we have even better to come? Anybody paying to send a Moon mission right now has to be aware NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter will surpass it on straight imaging from orbit. I know Chang'e 1 has other instruments and more to offer other than just plain imaging such as this. I have seen JAXA compare directly to Clementine on their web site showing how good their probe is, now we've had a comparison here too! If NASA had only been at the Moon a year ago that is a very long time in technology, it is no surprise Clementine is being surpassed. It was not a hugely funded mission either just as Selene and Chang'e 1 are not. However, i believe NASA will reclaim its crown with LRO. Lets not forget Europe did a fantastic job at the Moon with SMART 1. Although you cannot blame anybody for not knowing about it. lol http://apod.oa.uj.edu.pl/apod/image/0502/pythagorasCrater_smart_rc64.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

3488 · Nov 26, 2007

Hi Anthmartian. Wouldnt like to say about Chang'e 1's image released, being the sharpest being returned. Chang'e 1's resolution is expected to be 120 metres. This is slightly less then Clementine's 100 metres. Kaguya / SELENE, 8 metres & leading them all, by a collosal amount will be the Lunar Reconnaisance Orbiter, where the LROC (Luner Reconaisance Orbiter Camere, a twin of the HiRISE), will average 50 cm resolution, in places maybe as sharp as 30 cm. In short, all of these missions complement each other. SELENE is doing very high resolution imaging & multispectral data, Chang'e 1, a high resolution 3D lunar global imaging & LRO will hone in on very interesting sites, picked up on by SELENE, Chang'e 1 & the earlier Clementine, Lunar Orbiters, etc. This is not a case of my spacecraft is better than your spacecraft. Each one, is carrying out a very different mission, but each one, is providing a part, to the complete global understanding of our Moon, its shape, evolution, current distribution of minerals, polar ice (if it exists), etc. My initial attitude towards Chang'e 1 has changed completely in light of the excellent image strip released so far. China, as well as Japan, have given the world something very special indeed. Lets hope Chang'e 1 succeeds. The first complete lunar global imaging phase is expected to be complete by mid January 2008. Looking forward to seeing it. Hopefully, by then SELENE also will have returned more from the HDTV & TC. This is a very good time for lunar exploration. 'The area covered by the picture, about 460 km in length and 280 km in width, is within a location of 70 to 54 degrees south latitude and 83 to 57 degrees east longitude, the official Xinhua news agency said, quoting BACC sources'. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

anthmartian · Nov 26, 2007

To have another agency contributing to the exploration of our solar system is fantastic. I really wish the Chinese well with this mission. I am looking forward to the results very much. You are spot on Andrew, all these missions taken as a whole will deliver us some truly amazing stuff. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

3488 · Nov 26, 2007

Hi shuttle_guy, I agree completely. Chang'e 1 proves once & for all, that China is capable of deep space flight & meaningful planetary exploration. My chinese wife has been asking me about this, as in the chinese newspapers, they did not say very much, but she saw this mission on the web (not to mention that I had said about it needless to say). Tonight, I will show her the released image & try & explain a bit, what we are looking at, as her English, although very good now, may not grasp Impact Craters, Basalt, etc. Hi Anthmartian, I too am looking forward to seeing more. Hopefully there will be frequent releases. The orbit seems fairly high @ about 200 KM, wonder if they will lower it? That is a good camera, they've got there & a lower orbit would really bring it justice. We should hear more from SELENE soon too. I agree also Anthmartian, these missions are NOT expensive by any means & really neither will LRO, given its capabilities. It p****s me off, when people argue " this is money that the Asian countries could be better spending". Crap, this is investment in our very species & knowledge & there will be major benefits to those countries concerned. My Chinese wife is fully behind this & she is very proud that her country is doing this. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

no_way · Nov 26, 2007

Its weird to think that the last soft landing on the moon was in 1976, Luna 24, the USSR lunar sample return. Its been more than 30 years. How come we neglected our closest neighbour in space for so long ? When will the next one happen ? From what i gather, NASA's RLEP/RLEP II is sort of on a backburner ?

anthmartian · Nov 26, 2007

What will a successful Chang'e 1 mission deliver apart from scientific return from Lunar orbit? It will promote the engineering and technological output of China, it will promote China and elevate it on the world stage. The same goes for Selene and Japan, the same will go for India too. I get very frustrated too Andrew with people who say countries like India should not be spending money on space exploration. Why not? Why should countries perceived to be not the most stable economically not be allowed to launch in to space? Why should these countries not have a piece of the action? A piece of the profit? The right to explore? Is building an Aero Space industry and taking initiative wrong for a country like India? Why should they not promote their technological achievements, learning, a small budget mission is not going to create more starving masses in any country. It will only do good for that country. It will also be good for the whole world to share in these endeavours. I am certainly on cloud nine with what is happening with the Asian countries. It is always great to have a differing slant on space missions, a different approach, different goals, together we will learn much more. I strayed a bit off topic there. Sorry all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Click Here And jump over to my site. </div>

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