China's military space station

[docm]

Doesn't jibe well with Obama's insistence that the US not militarize space. He may well not have an option.

Link....

China readies military space station – launch coincides with shuttle phaseout

China is aggressively accelerating the pace of its manned space program by developing a 17,000 lb. man-tended military space laboratory planned for launch by late 2010. The mission will coincide with a halt in U.S. manned flight with phase-out of the shuttle.

The project is being led by the General Armaments Department of the People's Liberation Army, and gives the Chinese two separate station development programs.

Shenzhou 8, the first mission to the outpost in early 2011 will be flown unmanned to test robotic docking systems. Subsequent missions will be manned to utilize the new pressurized module capabilities of the Tiangong outpost.

Importantly, China is openly acknowledging that the new Tiangong outpost will involve military space operations and technology development.

Also the fact it has been given a No. 1 numerical designation indicates that China may build more than one such military space laboratory in the coming years.

"The People's Liberation Army's General Armament Department aims to finish systems for the Tiangong-1 mission this year," says an official Chinese government statement on the new project. Work on a ground prototype is nearly finished.

The design, revealed to the Chinese during a nationally televised Chinese New Year broadcast, includes a large module with docking system making up the forward half of the vehicle and a service module section with solar arrays and propellant tanks making up the aft.

The concept is similar to manned concepts for Europe's Automated Transfer Vehicle.

While used as a target to build Chinese docking and habitation experience, the vehicle's military mission has some apparent parallels with the U.S. Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory (MOL) program cancelled in 1969 before it flew any manned missions. MOL's objectives were primarily reconnaissance and technology development.

While U.S. military astronauts were to be launched in a Gemini spacecraft atop their MOLs, in China's case, the module will operate autonomously and be visited periodically by Chinese astronauts, to perhaps retrieve reconnaissance imagery or other sensor data. At least one unmanned Shenzhou was equipped with a military space intelligence eavesdropping antenna array.

Along with launch of the outpost, China is also beginning mass production of Shenzhou taxi spacecraft, says Zhang Bainan, the chief Shenzhou design manager.

All previous Shenzhous have been built as individual custom spacecraft for widely spaced missions. But China is now moving to Shenzhou assembly line production to increase flight rates.

In addition to operational mission objectives the Chinese mission plans will provide a propaganda windfall in China and send a global geopolitical message relative to declining U.S. space leadership.

The Tiangong vehicle's debut in late 2010, and increase in Chinese manned mission flight rates will coincide with the planned termination of the U.S. space shuttle program and a five year hiatus in American manned space launches.

The first manned NASA Orion/Ares manned mission to Earth orbit is not likely until 2015 with manned lunar operations no earlier than 2020.

During that period China can rack up multiple attention getting missions, while Americans launched in the Russian Soyuz will draw meager attention unless they are involved in an emergency.

Along with the Tiangong announcement comes another major revelation – that China now has two manned space station programs under development.

• The new Tiangong series, that can be launched on the same type Long March 2F booster used to carry Soyuz-type Shenzhou manned transports.

• And a larger 20-25 ton "Mir class" station that will follow by about 2020 launched on the new oxygen/hydrogen powered Long March 5 boosters.

The Chinese have shown this editor numerous space station models and drawings during six trips to China over the last several years.

All of those concepts looked very similar to the Soviet Mir with a core and add-on modules-- nothing like the Tiangong just revealed in China.

The heavier Mir type design, however, is the one being pursued for launch on the new Long March 5, Liu Fang, vice president of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. (CASC) told me during a visit to Beijing last April. It will weigh twice as much as the man tended military outpost.

The Tiangong design is designed for short tasks or limited overnight stays in a pressurized shirtsleeve environment, while the heavier Chinese stations planned for several years from now will be for longer term habitation.
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[BoJangles2]

China has one plan, and thats to take over the world, or at least be the worlds superpower, god help us all.

 

[MarkStanaway]

I suspect that China will find in due course that a manned space facility has limited military value
The Russians found that out with their Almaz stations which were launched as Salyut 3 and Salyut 5. They never did launch any more military Salyuts.
Similarly one of the reasons the Manned Orbiting Laboratory (MOL) was cancelled was because they could not identify military role for it that could not already be fulfilled by unmanned reconaissance satellites.

 

[The_Chef]

At 17 klb that "station" is gonna be pretty spare. I'd like to know what the dimensions & layout are going to be.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

While I don't cherish the idea of the militarization of space-not one bit-perhaps it will light a fire-or a rocket- under the ass of the American and European, and Japanese space programs(especially the American one, as it seems to need it the most,IMO).
After all, we didn't get to where we are today with all this great and ever increasing technology by cooperation, but through competition. Fear of military vulnerability and inferiority seems to be the most potent motivator of Man and his technology, know-how, and ability. Like it or not.

Still, it's sad that it always has to be this way. Instead of competing out of fear amongst ourselves, we ought to be having constructive national competitions. For example, let's have a 'who can build the most efficient and self-sufficient lunar base in X amount of time'. Or, how about have a billion dollar prize contest(funded not by governments but by the world's billionaires, there's a lot of them BTW) for the first team that can develop a truly revolutionary form of propulsion.

Will we ever get it together and stop all this in-house fighting? Doesn't the human race have enough to focus on and problems to solve without another con-founded military race?

A poster mentioned the inviability of an orbiting military base and I agree. No matter what tech you put on the thing, it could be shot down. All you'd have to do is launch a thousand decoy missiles at the thing with 10 or twenty armed missiles among the decoys.

 

[Swampcat]

No matter what tech you put on the thing, it could be shot down. All you'd have to do is launch a thousand decoy missiles at the thing with 10 or twenty armed missiles among the decoys.

It wouldn't even take that. Just launch a bucket of bolts across its orbital path at the right time.

Of course, there's enough debris in orbit as it is and maybe with their own assets up there the Chinese would think twice before trying another ASAT mission.

 

[The_Chef]

It wouldn't even take that. Just launch a bucket of bolts across its orbital path at the right time.

Of course, there's enough debris in orbit as it is and maybe with their own assets up there the Chinese would think twice before trying another ASAT mission.

You don't even need bolts, sand would do just fine.

 

[space_tycoon]

Heck, why even bother sending anything solid. A good blast of directed energy, say a microwave laser, would be enough to fry their computer hardware.

Not that I advocate such a thing. I'm with the Pres on this one, keep space open for business, but for civilians.

No need to make space a battleground. After all, that would be giving George Lucas the last laugh. :lol:

 

[kelvinzero]

You guys are kidding right? Or hoping someone will read this and throw some more money at manned space?

Flying up astronauts to download spy photos? Thats just silly. Even if they did not believe they could send data down without it being intercepted, send up a single 250gb hdd filled with one of two copies of a file of random numbers and you could send down 250gb of totally uncrackable data whenever you want. Think how many hdds could be sent for the weight of one astronaut and capsule!

I can't think of any application of men in space that worries me a thousandth as much as unmanned weapons in space or even ground based antisatellite weapons.

The only thing that makes this military I assume is that the military is the branch of the chinese government that provides the rockets and the astronauts. The only threat is increased technical ability and international esteem.

 

[Blackfire]

Can anyone really be suprised by this news?

Not me, dissapointed yes, but not unexpected. You would think that with china's population problem they would rather be looking at colonization to solve their overcrowding and growing hunger for resources. Industries built in space for processing metals into useful spaceship construction and advanced hydroponics for food production, would make more sense and long overdue, if were ever to see ourselves in space.

Just my opinion.....

 

[why06]

In a sort of perverse way... I'm glad China is planning to militarize space :?

The space program has not been receiving the attention it deserves. The last space race was fueled by the Cold War and the quest to launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. This race will be fueled by the need to obtain orbital superiority over China. It is a strange thing that War the most horrid o humanities activities will fuel the most noblest cause of the pursuit of knowledge and understanding.

I fear without some sort of fear or danger of war. Our expansion into space will be delayed much longer then previously perceived and this may have terrible outcomes, with the population approaching 9 billion by 2040 I think the benefits of space will be needed just to support our population.

Its a dangerous balance, to much war and everything we worked for is lost, yet with out some sort of motivation delays in funding and research will delay technological growth.

 

[gunsandrockets]

As kelvinzero guessed, the Chinese manned spaceflight program is military. The small Chinese space station is nothing more than just another step in their manned program.

As for 'space militarization' or 'weapons in space' or other such nonsense which makes the hearts of peaceniks skip a beat, all I can say to them is open your eyes and grow up. Space has been 'militarized' ever since the Corona spy-satellite program of the early 1960's. Haven't the peaceniks ever heard of a little something recently called "satellite guided bombs"? Space is already one of the most important arenas of military activity.

 

[why06]

I expect since America is the only country with the economy or infrastructure routinely launch satellite-sized objects into space, America will remain unchallenged in space for decades to come. If china or Russia want to pose any sort of "global threat to America or at least stand on the same level in military power they will have no choice, but to head into space. We need another large organization in the world with the power to launch rockets other than NASA. The European Space Agency has no capable launch vehicles. Right now space is thought of as an empty void. It has to be thought of as a new opportunity if anyone is going to be willing to leave their home world. Space can offer minerals and materials in quantities never before seen on Earth. I believe mining for radioactive materials such as uranium may become very important.

 

[MeteorWayne]

why06: huh? You should do some fact checking. The russions do as many or more space launches than we do. ESA has Ariane, China is catching up fast. Japan, India all launch.To say we are the only ones putting stuff is space is astoundingly unaware.

Edited to correct spelling of Ariane

 

[DrRocket]

why06: huh? You should do some fact checking. The russions do as many or more space launches than we do. ESA has Arienne, China is catching up fast. Japan, India all launch.To say we are the only ones putting stuff is space is astoundingly unaware.

Absopositively correct.

In fact the U.S. space launch business is pretty sad at the moment.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Just did a quick count of 2009 so far

US launches 6 (including 1 shuttle and one failure-GOCE)
Russia 5 (including 2 Soyuz)
ESA 2
Iran 1
Japan 1

 

[why06]

Really my ignorance puts me to shame. Thanks for correcting I wasn't aware... :|

Nevertheless I do realize that NASA is not the only organization to launch objects into space. I simply thought it was the only one with the resources to launch large payloads. I see I am very mistaken. I do remember Soyuz.... for some reason it did not occur to me to even think when righting that last statement. (no early morning posting for me) However I am surprised to hear ESA has a launch vehicle. I thought they started up pretty recently(3-5 years ago)... or maybe I just recently found out they existed. :?

 

[MeteorWayne]

Yes, ArianeSpace is a commercial launch suppplier, currently launching more than 8700 kg to orbit. Formed in 1980, it reached it's 50th flight in 1992, it's 100th in 1997, and is well over 200 now (I can't find the exact number yet). There were 11 Ariane 1 launches, 6 Ariane 2, and 11 Ariane 3 launches. The Ariane 4, which ended service in 1993 had 116 launches, the current launcher (manufactured by Astrium) is the Ariane 5. It launched the COROT and Rosetta missions for ESA, and the Jules Verne ATV to the ISS. It is a 10 metric ton (10000 kg, 22000lb) capacity to GTO and 20 metric tons to LEO.

 

[emudude]

Just did a quick count of 2009 so far

US launches 6 (including 1 shuttle and one failure-GOCE)
Russia 5 (including 2 Soyuz)
ESA 2
Iran 1
Japan 1

WHOA WHOA WHOA... don't forget North Korea 1 :lol:

...sorry, couldn't resist

 

[MeteorWayne]

First, that was written before the NK attempt. Second, I was only counting things that made it to orbit. third, I realize you're j/k

 

[vulture4]

This reminds me of the time we sent an Army enlisted man up in the Shuttle with a pair of binoculars to prove the value of manned "eyeball" reconnaissance. The experiment was not repeated. I don't dispute that China has the usual spy satellites and ICBMs, but if they have any credible military application for manned spaceflight please explain what it is.

 

[emudude]

First, that was written before the NK attempt. Second, I was only counting things that made it to orbit. third, I realize you're j/k

Can't say no to a good lawl

This reminds me of the time we sent an Army enlisted man up in the Shuttle with a pair of binoculars to prove the value of manned "eyeball" reconnaissance. The experiment was not repeated. I don't dispute that China has the usual spy satellites and ICBMs, but if they have any credible military application for manned spaceflight please explain what it is.

Simply establishing a presence in space is significant. Unless they had a massive ceramic ball onboard, nothing they could hurtle towards the Earth would pose any threat, so your guess is as good as mine. I believe Japan also wants to militarize space, so I don't see why it's unreasonable for China to want to do the same. Just because a few countries won't militarize space doesn't prevent others from doing it...take the standards of Labour in the West, which have driven workshop-style industries overseas due to their high costs, for example; slave labour/sweatshop conditions have prevailed as the number one suppliers because someone was willing to do it, and our standards don't mean anything to the people regulating those industries. The next slap in the face to people who abuse labour costs will be when robotic labour - which doesn't require ANY pay - creeps in and there aren't any jobs. It WILL happen, because it stands to outcompete the sweatshop market.

Go into any car factory and look at their assembly lines. After watching the people working on it repeatedly attach a car door to the frame while earning more than many university graduates do, take a look at the vast number of robotic devices actually forming the frames and doing welding. You should then be able to see why the auto industry is going to hell in North America, and why Russia, which is setting up TONS of Japanese-styled car plants, is going to make a fortune. Side Note: as a Canadian, I see how bad our auto industry is on a much more personal level...because our @#$%@#$% government made it the law that our tax money has to pay for their pensions!!! GRR :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[asj2010]

This is just the usual scare tactics (by a site that seems to have disappeared). Maybe you guys forgot but:

1. The US is hell lot more aggressive militarily than China even today, as witnessed by its invasion of Iraq.

2. China does not have a history of military aggressiveness or conquest, at least not when compared to the genocides and imperialism demonstrated by Europe and the US in the last few hundred years.

3. The US is the only nuclear armed country that has ever used nuclear weapons against an enemy, in this case causing hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

Before calling the kettle black, maybe some look into the mirror is needed.

 

[neutrino78x]

This is just the usual scare tactics (by a site that seems to have disappeared).

China is just the usual communist country with nuclear weapons. But judging from this post, you are probably a communist.

1. The US is hell lot more aggressive militarily than China even today, as witnessed by its invasion of Iraq.

We are normally on the correct side, though, because we are a free country. I was against Iraq too, but America is still the good guys.

2. China does not have a history of military aggressiveness or conquest,

Surely you're joking????

at least not when compared to the genocides and imperialism demonstrated by Europe and the US in the last few hundred years.

So, you agree that an extremist regime like Nazi Germany should not have a space program or nuclear weapons? In that case you should share our concern about China.

3. The US is the only nuclear armed country that has ever used nuclear weapons against an enemy, in this case causing hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

Again, we are a free country. China is not. There is no ambiguity here: we are the good guys, China is the bad guys.

--Brian

 

[gunsandrockets]

This is just the usual scare tactics (by a site that seems to have disappeared). Maybe you guys forgot but:

1. The US is hell lot more aggressive militarily than China even today, as witnessed by its invasion of Iraq.

2. China does not have a history of military aggressiveness or conquest, at least not when compared to the genocides and imperialism demonstrated by Europe and the US in the last few hundred years.

3. The US is the only nuclear armed country that has ever used nuclear weapons against an enemy, in this case causing hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

Before calling the kettle black, maybe some look into the mirror is needed.

By golly you are absolutely right! Why should the U.S. have cared that the bulk of the Japanese Army was in China during August 1945, fighting and slaughtering the Chinese? Why, the U.S. could have just sat back and slowly starved the Japanese into surrendering, instead of quickly ending the war by using nuclear weapons. Of course that would have meant millions of Japanese would have starved to death, and during those extra months as the war continued into winter, hundreds of thousands more Chinese would have died in the fighting. But the important thing is the Atomic Bomb wouldn't have been used. Yep those dastardly dastardly Americans. :roll:

Oh, and as for a history of genocide, I suggest you read the French book, "The Black Book of Communism" which gives in excruciating detail the millions killed by communists around the world in the decades since the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia in 1917. One interesting fact is that of the nearly 100 million people killed by communists during the 20th century, most of those killed were Chinese and their killers were Chinese communists.