Congress may slash NASA budget

mattblack · Jul 23, 2004

THE C.E.V. SHOULD BE THE PRIORITY!!! I spoke to an Astronaut recently who said, and I quote; "The sooner the Shuttle era ends, the better." I wont tell you who he was for now, but if you're curious, I might later. Anyway, although I'm very mad they're proposing these cuts, I feel all the more powerless. That's because I'm not an American taxpayer and beyond this forum I just cannot contribute to the fight. And make no mistake: This IS a fight we have on our hands! If the internet and e-mail had been around in 1971, do you think we could have saved Apollo's 18 and 19? I reckon we could!! Although I'd be happier than Zubrin if the Moon was ignored and the U.S. shot straight for Mars, I have to face the facts that the U.S. cannot currently launch any humans into orbit, let alone beyond it. That's why for a C.E.V. I strongly believe in a design that could work equally well for either Moon or Mars with minimal modification. The Moon has to be a proving ground, but not a 15 or 20 year one. Undertake 7 or 8 Lunar missions (long ones) over a 5 year period first, then GET GOING to Mars. And DON'T repeat the I.S.S. near-fiasco with a Lunar base: Just make 2 or 3 SIMPLE semi-permanent man-tended stations on prime Lunar spots (Poles and one on the farside) and get on with Mars!! The C.E.V. should probably resemble the blunt biconic ship that's been used in Nasa's concept art lately (see attached). Tough, reasonably simple and capable of a semi-lifting aero-entry on either Mars or the Earth. On the Lunar version, you merely carry more propellant because of the Moon's lack of aerobraking facility. For that reason you need more Delta-V for a lunar mission than for Mars!! Though this can be offset somewhat by the lesser need for consumables on a shorter Lunar mission. As I said in another call-to-arms post in this forum: />>> Push, push, PUSH for all it's worth. Then push some more. America, this may be your <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

halman · Jul 23, 2004

RadarRedux, Thank you! (Bows.) Most of the increase in the size of our economy recently has been a result of increases in productivity. But this type of growth is unsustainable, I believe, because there are limits to what people can do. Space exploitation is one of the fews areas left to us where we can create 'real' economic growth, with new jobs, and a new way of creating value. Creating value out of nothing is the way economic growth has happened most of the time. The 'nothing' is actually resources, labor, and capitol, but used in a way that does not appear on the balance sheets. Lunar regolith plus sunlight equals minerals. Getting the regolith and collecting the sunlight require labor and tools. Once the tools are paid for, they can be used again and again. Ditto the smelter. After the initial investment, each time these things are used, the amount of money needed to pay for them initially is created. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH DEFENSE SPENDING! Once the wealth applied to defense goes through the eceonomy, it disappears. (I'll tell anyone who wants to know why in a private message.) Creating new wealth is imperative if we want our economy to grow! Investment in space technology right now could begin paying back the investment in 20-25 years, if we invest in a new space ship of some kind, and a new generation of rockets. With these investments, we open the door to the Moon. Spending 100 billion over the next ten years could see a Crew Expedition Vehicle, a Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle in small, medium, and large sizes, the completion of the International Space Station, the completion of a second space station, to be used primarily to support dieveloping the Moon, and a Lunar Shuttle, for hauling people to and from the Moon. The CEV takes people into space, docking at the space station, from the space station they take the Shuttle to the Moon. Starting about 15 years from now, an investment of abou <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

erauskydiver · Jul 23, 2004

It's just such a shame that the only thing that holds us back as a species is an intangible idea that we humans came up with: money. Just think of where we might be if there was no such thing (assuming humans weren't so greedy that is...)

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

mattblack-- Well said! I agree completely! I already did the e-mails and I plan to make phone calls this afternoon (FINALLY an afternoon off). Yesterday at work we had a huge argument over whether or not we should go to the Moon first. One guy advocated Mars Direct while the girl wanted to go to the moon. I was on the fence, taking the "Anywhere but here" stance. Bob was in the other room but we all know whose side he'd be on. I just hope we get to go somewhere. Shuttle_Guy -- So, they cut the EPA, too? That's like saying "HEY! Let's destroy the planet, and then condemn us to live here FOREVER!" I sense a conspiracy <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

arobie · Jul 23, 2004

Mattblack, way to go. I completely agree!! We need to fight for this!

arobie · Jul 23, 2004

The White House threatens to veto the budget bill because of the NASA cuts according to SDC. Good news. Heres the article: http://www.space.com/news/bush_veto_040723.html

radarredux · Jul 23, 2004

> The White House threatens to veto the budget bill/i> The President's advisors would recommend that the President veto the budget. I am still waiting to see the President step up to the plate. By the way, the full House Appropriations Committee OKed the VA-HUD Subcommittee's cuts to NASA. I haven't been able to find any data on who voted which way, whether it was a voice vote, or virtually anything else. http://www.space.com/news/okeefe_congress_040723.html On the positive side, I am certainly learning more about our government than I ever did in school.

arobie · Jul 23, 2004

" I am still waiting to see the President step up to the plate. " Well then lets hope he steps up to the plate. I think he would want to, Lets hope no crappy politics stops him.

mrmorris · Jul 23, 2004

"On the positive side, I am certainly learning more about our government than I ever did in school. " You consider that to be a positive side? The more I learn about the way the U.S. government works, the more nauseated I get.

tfrederick9 · Jul 23, 2004

I'm not really surprised about this. The public supports the whole Moon/Mars effort however they don't grasp the need for some of the ground work that is needed. The general public doesn't understand space, all they see is the shuttle and the ISS, and that these two programs are whats worked for the last 20 years. My opinion is that NASA, if they really do want to goto the Moon/Mars, which is in some doubt as far as I'm concerned, is to: 1) contract it out a good chunk of the work, the Moon needs micro sat for a lunar GPS, Comm sats etc. this is perfect for the private sector and can get done in parrell with a base. 2) get a small base up there, some thing small that allows for expansion, not so much the building to be added onto, but give them a footprint and a test bed for technologies. I think the best way to do this is skunk works style. The put out the overall requirements, like 110vs, windows XP, thermal contraints,etc and let everyone bid on it, not just the big 2. One more thing, Bush isn't a details guy or a big ideas guy. I really doubt he care too much about the Moon/Mars debate, I'm sure he really does want us to go there, but its more of an idea rather than something he believes in. Now, I'm not knocking him for this, its just my opinion of the man. What the public needs is something conrete to get behind, they've heard big space ideas before, and none of them have panned out. Just image how special it would be if on CNN and Foxnews a person on the Moon broke in and said "Hi, reporting from the moon" with out anyone really knowing that the base was operational. That would generate some buzz. Sorry for the rant

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr /> By the way, the full House Appropriations Committee OKed the VA-HUD Subcommittee's cuts to NASA. I haven't been able to find any data on who voted which way, whether it was a voice vote, or virtually anything else. <hr /></blockquote> So what does that mean for us? Does that mean that the deed is now final, and there's nothing we can do about it, or can we still fight back? If so, then how?

redracer02 · Jul 23, 2004

I know, I'm getting into late, but here it goes..... After reading about the crap that is being purposed in the bugdet, all the waste, I can't believe they would do this. The last things they should be cutting are education and science, but for some reason, these are almost always the first. Hell, cut foriegn aid before you cut those 2. I'm looking for more info right now as to what is still in and what is out of the budget so far.

radarredux · Jul 23, 2004

> So what does that mean for us? Does that mean that the deed is now final/i> The Senate still needs to do their thing, and they haven't even started. It seems that the Senate is generally more supportive of NASA. Once it gets through the VA-HUD Senate Subcommittee and then the full Senate Appropriations Committee, it probably goes to a conference between the House and the Senate to iron out the differences (sometimes there is a huge amount). Finally, it goes to the President who can sign or veto it (see recently SDC article on that possibility). Right now everyone is taking a break for party conventions, they will reconvene for a little in September before hitting the campaign trails. Given that the Senate has a *lot* to do, and they haven't passed one budget bill outside of defense oriented stuff, I don't think anything will be decided until after the Nov. elections. You can track the progress of appropriations bill at the URL below (note how empty the Senate Approval columns are): http://thomas.loc.gov/home/approp/app05.html I believe come Oct. 1 most government groups will be funded under continuing resolution bills that essentially keep funding them at the same level as FY04. And given that the House wanted to cut NASA to below FY04 levels, I guess this would be good thing. So there is still time and opportunity, but the window is closing.

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

But I thought it was said that Senate already approved the full amount earlier? And does this vote of approval mean that the fight for the house is now over, done deal, or is there any point left in writing them? I don't know anything about politics even now and I'm so confused .... I just don't want hope to be lost .... But I'm afraid

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

Sorry to double post but I am having trouble understanding this paragraph from a spacedaily article: "Following the subcommittee action, Rep. C. W. Bill Young, R-Fla., chair of the Appropriations Committee, said the plan was to bring the VA, HUD and IA bill to the House floor for a full vote soon after Congress returned from its summer vacation in early September. But Delay vowed to in effect kill the bill and the subcommittee's work by blocking it from floor action in the fall." What exactly does that mean??

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

Yup ... third post in a row ... sorry. I also am having trouble understanding why they went from proposing to approving the cuts so fast. Three days is not even enough time for snail mail sent the day of to arrive. There's something else going on here. I just wish that I knew what it was. But I don't know anything, and I hate that. The good news is I'm a comet now. But considering what's going on, being a comet doesn't feel that great.

silylene old · Jul 23, 2004

I also am having trouble understanding why they went from proposing to approving the cuts so fast. Three days is not even enough time for snail mail sent the day of to arrive. There's something else going on here. I just wish that I knew what it was. Well, in the news this week the Iraq war is unexpectedly $14B over-budget for this year. So cuts in discretionary funding are more necessary. I think it's more than a coicidence that slashing the space program and the Iraq overspending have surfaced nearly simultaneously. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

thecolonel · Jul 23, 2004

Mattblack, Very passionately and well stated! Our destiny is out there, now all we must do is embrace it! All this news about the House is very disconcerting, but we mustn't lose all hope yet. NASA has been down this path many times before, and I for one think they have learned a thing or two. Depending on how things shake out, this could all get delayed and pushed back late into the fall season. While we may not want to wait so long for the outcome of this to be realized, this could be a blessing in disguise. I'm obviously no expert, but if it could be possible to delay this until after the election and Bush won, then he would certainly be more willing to make a more "bold" move and push this thing through with White House backing. Just a thought, but regardless, I still think we have some tricks up our sleeve.

arobie · Jul 23, 2004

Well remember, who will win the election is up in the air.

spayss · Jul 23, 2004

There's only so much money in the pot. Someone who wants more money spent on Grandma's medication so she can ease the pain or someone who wants better armor shielding for their son figthing in Iraq... So...do you want the Shuttle and ISS or a return to the Moon. You can't have both. Any Moon or Mars mission funding will come out of the existing NASA budget. I don't like it. You might not like it...but it's the reality. Hard decisions should have been made after the Columbia accident but instead there's wishy washy pie- in- the -sky self-deception that we can have our cake and eat it to. If you want the Shuttle to fly again, then don't think we're going to the Moon any time soon. The Federal budget, like your allowance, pay check, etc, operates in the real world. There's only so much money in the cookie jar, the credit cards are maxed out, and tough decisions have to be made...also by NASA.

lunatic133 · Jul 23, 2004

So why doesn't congress just cut the shuttle/ISS and instead fund the moon program (which will in the end be less expensive).

radarredux · Jul 23, 2004

> after the election and Bush won, then he would certainly be more willing to make a more "bold" move and push this thing through with White House backing./i> Don't forget that Bush's heavy tax cuts and protracted war are in part what led the the large deficits, and these have led to the across the board cuts in just about everything except military. I have done very well with Bush's tax cuts, and I am not very fond of Kerry. However, money does not grow in trees, so sacrifices need to be made. Bush can fight for more money for NASA, but he is going to need to identify where it will come from. And given the military situation, the money will almost certainly have to come from another social program (NSF, EPA, basic science, education, police, ...), all of which will have already been effectively cut as well. All this rambling simply comes to one conclusion: very tough choices need to be made by Congress and whoever is president.

thecolonel · Jul 23, 2004

You might not like it...but it's the reality. There is a very fine line between pragmatism and cynicism.

halman · Jul 24, 2004

lunatic133, The activity that has been getting all the attention here is a committee working to establish budget numbers to submit to the full chamber. Other committiees are charged with developing budget numbers for other parts of the government, such as Defense, Interior, Propaganda, (Did I say that?) and all the other things that are payed for with taxpayer dollars. After the house finishes their version of the budget, members are assigned to meet with certain senators, to reach agreement on the numbers. If the Senate wants to fund something which the House wants to ignore, some kind of compromise must be worked out which is agreeable to both houses. And Congress is poised to go on summer vacation, which means that all of this will be tabled until the recess is over. So, tune in next September, when things start happening again. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

scottb50 · Jul 24, 2004

Exactly, much adeu about nothing. Persomally I think the Bush plan is rediculous and a waste of money, but if it's the only thing we are going to get then waste away, at least it gets us going in the right direction. If Bush gets re-elected and we continue on our crusade to pacify the World then there is no way we can do what is proposed and it will go up in smoke, mirrors are optional at a slightly higher price. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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