Controversial SciFi question

[ordinary_guy]

After wading through a sea of recent biblical references around here, an SF concept occurred to me. I thought it would make for a great SF story – though it would likely get me lynched in the Judeo-Christian world. Does anyone know of a story (book/movie) where:<br /><br />...an advance team of alien invaders (a sort of Martian PSYOPS team) lands on a planet and plants stories to prep the local population for an invasion (the "end times")? I know there have been references to biblical lore in SF, but has there been anything that potentially subversive?<br /><br />On a semi-related note, I heard there was a race in Babylon 5 that was supposed to the reason folk believed in angels... but I never watched the series. Anyone know more about them? Can anyone name other references to biblical lore in SF? Bits of rationalization or creative adaptation? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[jmilsom]

You need to read some of PKDick's short stories. He writes one about a future in which society has discovered ways to make quantum tunnels, making it quick and easy to travel between points A & B on earth. One of the early experimenters notices tiny figures in the grey around the edge of the tunnel and tries to interact with them - although they are from our past and see him as a vision of ....... Won't spoil the rest of it. He has written quite a few that make be deemed controversial from a religious point of view. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[pmn1]

<font color="yellow">After wading through a sea of recent biblical references around here, an SF concept occurred to me. I thought it would make for a great SF story – though it would likely get me lynched in the Judeo-Christian world. Does anyone know of a story (book/movie) where: </font><br /><br />Entoverse - The 4th book in James P Hogan's Giants series briefly mentions this - a researcher wants to discuss whether Jesus was real or the product of some interplanetary medlling...<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517097788/002-3523582-8465658?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance<br /><br />http://www.jamesphogan.com/books/entovrse/orbit91/titlepage.shtml<br /><br /><font color="yellow">On a semi-related note, I heard there was a race in Babylon 5 that was supposed to the reason folk believed in angels... but I never watched the series. Anyone know more about them? Can anyone name other references to biblical lore in SF? Bits of rationalization or creative adaptation</font><br /><br />The Vorlons - at the start of the series they do come over as being 'angels' but they have a nastier side to and are not much better than their enemies the Shadows.<br /><br /><br />http://www.oinc.net/B5/Enc/display.php?vorlons<br /><br />http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/chars/kosh.html<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ordinary_guy]

Thank you all. So far so good, though I'm hoping that as people remember, they'll put in their two cents.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The Vorlons - at the start of the series they do come over as being 'angels' but they have a nastier side to and are not much better than their enemies the Shadows. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Actually, this seems closer to biblical lore than some might want to admit. If you look at the "to do" list for the Old Testament angels, some of them made the terminator look like a humanitarian... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[hracctsold]

Hey, aren't you being a little hard on the guy Newtonian? I thought he was one of you, and deserved the protecton you guys give each other in the gang.<br /><br />There is a fun book to read of ST, where "Q" makes mention that one of their set was a little strange in that he only wanted to be called, God. But this is where I really like to draw the line. I like to keep my fantasy from reality, and such things. If I want to deal in fantasy, that's great, but reality is another thing altogether. <br /><br />I can't really remember the book's name, but I think it was about when one of the "Q" caused 4 different sets of Enterprise crew from 4 multiverses to interact with each other, and almost cause the end of the world. Now that made you think, but now that I think of it, I did listen to it on tape.<br /><br />

 

[arc2]

Frank Herbert used Judeo-Christian and Islamic concepts in his books. the "Dune" series. The Orange Catholic Bible, the use of planted legends to support or protect Bene Geserit agents..... he used the religious mythology a lot, including the Messiah mythology and others.<br /><br />The film series "Pitch Black" and "Chronicles of Riddick" had heavy religious themes including Islam and explored the idea of religious conquest in a manner that calls the Catholic reign to mind.<br /><br />Even Star Wars had a myth of a Messiah and Anakin was the product of a "immaculate" conception by the midichlorians....<br /><br />Hard to escape the Holy Grail theme in many SF tales.... The Quest... geez, now all I need is a Joseph Campbell reference....

 

[cdr6]

I've got one for you O.G., if a copy of the bible is handy look at Ezechiel Chapter 1 and Ch 10. I get the impression that Bible is describing a helicopter. (A UH-1 or UH-60 comes to mind... crew of four...) Especially if one considers the position of Ezechiel himself and the technology of the era. (little/none) How would a person of that era describe a hovering and landing helicopter? (makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end... whoa)<br /><br />

 

[scull]

cool...<br /><br />Ezekiel was probably one of those geniuses (like da Vinci with his flying machines.) Some people just have the ability to see into the future.<br /><br />--<br /><br /><br /><br />

 

[lampblack]

This thread has sparked a fuzzy bit of half-recollection of a story that has a Jesuit priest researching the archeological remnants of a race of people who were destroyed when their sun went super nova.<br /><br />He calculates that the light from the exploding star would have reached earth at precisely the same time as the "star in the east" that marked the birthplace of Jesus -- and thus the beginning of Christendom.<br /><br />It throws the poor ol' boy into a bit of a theological tizzy, as best I recall.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Arthur Clarke story, IIRC. <br /><br />The people of the destroyed solar system left a time capsule on a distant planet in their system.<br /><br />The main character feared his return to earth with the news of the 'real star of Bethlehem' would destroy the church.<br /><br />IIRC, the nova had formed the Phoenix nebula. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[drstupid]

I rather enjoyed this story as well....<br /><br />Walter Miller's A Canticle for Liebowitz <br /><br /><br />What if Mankind is not redeemable?<br /><br />What if the individual person can find some redemption within their faith, but Man as a whole is a doomed and irretrievable, that there is something in our nature that will not let us survive? A troubling question, one of the many raised by Walter Miller's A Canticle for Liebowitz [Lippincott, 1959]. On its face, the story is a retelling of the Preservation of Knowledge In the Dark Ages tale, of a monastery in a New Dark Ages after the Bomb has destroyed civilization, but it is also a hard look at our first question. Miller's story is a hymn to the dogged, stubborn will of the human species and its accumulated knowledge to survive, even when our own self destructiveness leads us back to the Abyss.<br /><br />The story unfolds in a monastery somewhere in what was once the American Southwest. Of particular interest to the monks is their own beloved St. Liebowitz, a paragon of past glory known by a grocery list found in the Ruins. A monk doing his time fasting in the desert stumbles upon a ruined bomb shelter, the very place where Liebowitz spent his last hours, uncovering a hoard of twentieth century relics and documents. The rest of the narrative follows these relics as they are studied by the monks and ultimately by outside scientists intent on rebuilding civilization. The circle comes fully around, and Mankind prepares yet another volley of destruction which will finally erase its presence on the planet. The monks, bound and determined to save Man's knowledge for the good of God's creation, head off to the stars to search for another Sanctuary, and a worthy recipient.<br /><br />This is a very grim story, a depressingly pessimistic look at the warring creature that we are. But then there are the monks of St. Liebowitz, quietly fulfilling their vision of God's plan by doing what they can to keep the flickering light of Civi

 

[the_masked_squiggy]

Indeed, it is "The Star".<br /><br />You can read it here.<br /><br />There was an earlier thread on SdC about the Nine Billion Names of God story. If I recall though, it was in "phenomena", the one time I've actually been there. <br /><br />Clarke seems to like calling computers the Mark (insert Roman numeral here).

 

[lampblack]

It has been so many years since I read <i>A Canticle for Liebowitz</i> that I had more or less forgotten it. But in fact, it's a beautiful novel -- full of rich characters, all bound by an incredible plot line that runs for thousands of years.<br /><br />Humanity destroys itself twice over. And each time, the monks shore up the fragments of memory... it's beautiful.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[lampblack]

Thanks, Eddie and squiggy... I'd forgotten that "The Star" is an Arthur C. Clarke story -- so of <i>course</i> it's a fine bit of fiction. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[wmdragon]

some scifi with strong Judeo-Christian elements:<br /><br />Frank Herbert's The Jesus Incident (a very weird novel)<br /><br />Shinn's (?) series which starts with the novel title Archangel <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#993366"><em>The only laws of matter are those which our minds must fabricate, and the only laws of mind are fabricated for it by matter.</em> <br /> --- James Clerk Maxwell</font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Hraccts:<br /><br />This is also in the STNG book, "The Q Continuum," by Greg Cox. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

Also check out Mary Russells, The Sparrow

 

[hracctsold]

I think you may be right. <br /><br />This post also reminded me of another fun "Q" book to read, "Q-in-law". This was where Roxanna got the hots for our favorite Q, and it sends him into a panic!! Now that's a sight to picture.<br /><br />It has been a long time but I seem to remember the book you mentioned was a series, right? It was alright, but I don't think I finished the rest of the books in that series.

 

[yevaud]

I think it was a 4-book series. I've read 2.<br /><br />This is the one where the E is trying to pierce the "Great Barrier" surrounding the Galaxy, and several old ST bad-guys (superbeings all) appear from Q's early history. One of them believe's he's God (this is the same entity as appeared in one of the ST-TOS movies - the head at the center of the Galaxy). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[wmdragon]

it crossed my mind too, but I was thinking of books where the religious elements are part of the technology or science (e.g. people bioengineered to have wings and believe themselves to be angels ), as opposed to a normal religious man facing an alien world. The Sparrow was a good story. on a personal note, it blew my mind that the protagonist was a Puerto Rican Jesuit, given that I'm Puerto Rican and went to a Jesuit high school. an odd choice of characterization. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#993366"><em>The only laws of matter are those which our minds must fabricate, and the only laws of mind are fabricated for it by matter.</em> <br /> --- James Clerk Maxwell</font></p> </div>

 

[darkenfast]

I read a short story decades ago where a man time travels back to Galilee and winds up being Jesus. Can't remember the tirle or details. I read a novel called (I think) "Sinai" about six years ago. It dealt with the Proto-Israelites in the desert in a very realisitic fashion, and involved an inadvertant time opening to the modern world.

 

[dannyd]

Thank you Dr. Stupid for refreshing my memory regarding Miller's Canticle for Liebowitz. That was a one of those books I enjoyed so much that I limited the number of pages I allowed myself to read each day. Thanks - dannyd

 

[netarch]

Theodore Sturgeon's 1986 novel "Godbody" explored the concept of Jesus returning to modern day America and his impact on people. Remember that 1986 was just about the time that Religious Conservatives were beginning to realize how much political power they could wield... <br /><br />Ironically, it was Sturgeon's last novel - hmmm... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Full-time cruising now!!! </div>

 

[spacefire]

There's a book about an intelligen starship that actually plays God and Jesus is one of its passenegrs/slaves...or a clone of his. <br />Didn't like it at all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Towards the end of "90 Trillion Fausts" by Jack Chalker, he suggests that our entire universe is nothing more than the exhaust waste products of a multidimensional starship, and that Jesus is the Executive Officer. Oh, and Satan is a rebellious Engineering Officer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>