Could a drone aircraft fly in the Jovian atmosphere?

[thalion]

Great topic; this has been close to my heart for a long time.<br /><br />Lift:<br />For a balloon, the answer is simple, elaborated in Clarke's classic novella "A Meeting with Medusa": hot hydrogen. Actually, I'm willing to bet that hot atmosphere period would be sufficient for good lift.<br /><br />Power: I'm guessing an RTG would be good...however, there are some problems, IMO:<br /><br />1.) Weight on a platform on which every ounce means considerably more gas.<br /><br />2.) We shouldn't send an RTG-powered balloon to Jupiter without a precursor mission, IMO, to show that survival in the atmosphere for more than a few hours or days is feasible. For instance, we have little idea how turbulent Jupiter's atmosphere is at the balloon level; IIRC, Galileo probe data suggested it was a bumpy ride.<br /><br />For this precursor mission, I suggest solar power, or better yet, a battery that can last at least a week or two.<br /><br />Radiation:<br />I doubt this would be a problem in Jupiter's atmosphere proper, but getting there would be something else.<br /><br />In sum, the biggest obstacles we face in deploying a balloon probe to Jupiter are:<br /><br />1.) Little knowledge about the atmospheric environment.<br /><br />2.) How make an instrument platform that will last.<br /><br />3.) How to make a probe with all the "trimming" that can survive however many years in space, Jupiter's radiation belts, and the extreme deceleration required to deploy it. With Galileo, there were few moving parts aside from the probe and its shield. With a much more complex balloon probe, there will be that much more that can go wrong.<br /><br />4.) And, last but not least, the cost of launching the required mass to Jupiter.<br /><br /><br />

 

[nyarlathotep]

Why the heck shouldn't we send an RTG? With the solar flux out at Jupiter you'd need massive panels to generate power.

 

[qso1]

Thanks for the info...I'll have to get more familiar with the settings. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I figured it was a window in the side of a spacecraft. Details, details. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I also view posts in threaded mode. As such, you only see one post at a time. There are no pages per say. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I doubt he realized how little solar energy reachs Jupiter and/or how inefficient today's solar panels are. Both get worse inside Jupiter's atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

willpittenger:<br />I figured it was a window in the side of a spacecraft. Details, details.<br /><br />Me:<br />Lol, no problem. That could be in part my CGI skills always have to be improved. Or what di I used to say...minor details. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The easiest thing would be to start with simpole parachute probes and gliders. once we have a good idea of atmospheric structure and dynamics, then we can start designing aircraft and balloons.<br /><br />BTW, I see hot air balloons regularly where I live. They fly over my house, have taken off from my kids school, and one even landed in the work car park. They need a lot of heat to make them work. I doubt if an RTG could generate enough. A small reactor might be a better choice, with your instrument package hanging on a very long cable to minimise radiation interference.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I have yet to see anyone address how to get the aircraft out of its atmospheric entry vehicle. Sorry, folks, but the transporters are malfunctioning at the moment. Call back in a few hundred years. So how do we deliver such a vehicle?<br /><br />Also, any comments on putting the communications dish inside a rigid airship air bag? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Balloons have been deployed from parachuting entry vehicles before, during the Vega 1 and 2 mission to Venus.<br /><br />Designs for the unfolding of wings from inside an aeroshell have been be considered for Mars aircraft. It would be challenging from an engineering point of view to do it for Jupiter because ofg the accelleration loads, but it does not appear funamentally impossible.<br /><br />Remember that both balloons and aircraft on Jupiter are probably 100 years off, so will use technology considerably more advanced than ours, plus build on more detailed knowledge of Jovian conditions from simpler probes.<br /><br />With a balloon or airship, why would you want to put the antennae inside the envelope? You could have it on the instrument gondola, a considerable distance below. However, there is no reason why the antennae could not be inside the envelope if this was neccessary, if it was made of material transparent to radio waves. This has been done with some large survelliance radars on aerostats and blimps.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

As noted before, you put the dish inside the envelope for aerodynamic reasons. Even though a rigid airship or blimp would not have much speed, every little bit would help.<br /><br />Also, are there places in Jupiter's atmosphere where a lighter-than-air craft would not have problems with hi-speed winds? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

It is not horizontal wind speed that is the problem, but turbulence. You can have high wind speed but if the airship is carried along with it, it is no difference to still air. Major up and downdrafts could an be ssue, as they can cause loss of bouyancy control.<br /><br />A low relative speeds, aerodynamic issues are not a major concern. Hence the strut and cable work on biplanes was acceptable.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I would still prefer to eliminate unneeded drag. We might get a few extra knots out of it. As for high wind speeds, they can be an issue if you are try to control where you are headed. If you need to control your destination in a high wind environment, you must make your craft sleek and massive. Both are tough to do with a vehicle lighter than air. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I'd suspect, considering the wind speeds, control will be minimal. It's very difficult to cross the latitudinal bands if our velocity measurements are correct.<br />I guess you need two to start with, one for the Great Red Spot, and one in another band. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Are there areas with little to no wind? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I'm not sure, IIRC, there are bands with high velocity winds in opposite directions. Must admit, one of us will have to check, though.<br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The problem with being carried along is that you never encounter anything different. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"If you need to control your destination in a high wind environment, you must make your craft sleek and massive. Both are tough to do with a vehicle lighter than air."<br /><br />If you want to go to a particular destination in a high wind environment you would not use a lighter than air craft.<br /><br />On Jupiter, which has no permanant land marks and has a surface area much greater than Eartjh, where would you go?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

That is true. Still, how do you provide enough power to cross the bands? <br />A balloon still sound like a good way to get some real data though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"The problem with being carried along is that you never encounter anything different. "<br /><br />If this were true than the thousands of met balloon launches that take place every day are a waste.<br /><br />You can still rise and fall, encounter mixing and divergence zones, and track wind vectors. With a sophisticated probe on Jupiter you can use radar, IR and optical sensors to probe volumes for 100's of km in all directions, and measure changes in physical and chemical behaviour as temperature and presures change as you rise and fall.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Simply going up and down won't take you to someplace new unless you can include some AI except by chance. I doubt we would be able to predict wind directions and speeds at different altitudes from Earth quickly enough to provide any worthwhile input. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>On Jupiter, which has no permanant land marks and has a surface area much greater than Eartjh, where would you go?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />To where the atmosphere is different. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"Simply going up and down won't take you to someplace new unless you can include some AI except by chance. I doubt we would be able to predict wind directions and speeds at different altitudes from Earth quickly enough to provide any worthwhile input."<br /><br />It will take to somewhere new - new parts of the atmosphere. That is why thousands of radiosondes are deployed every day on Earth.<br /><br />You don't need to predict what the probe is going to do. To track where it goes and collect the data it obtains. That is the purpose of having a balloon probe. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"To where the atmosphere is different."<br /><br />Varying your altitude will do that. The atmosphere on Jupiter, like that of earth is different at different alitudes. Winds move at different speeds, and have different directions. The atmosphere will have different properties at different elevations and as different air masses mix. The composition of the air mass the balloon is in will change over time.<br /><br />This is why thousands of balloon probes are released every day, because they tell us vital information about the state of the atmosphere. There are more than 800 radiosonde stations round the world, and each normally release two balloons a day.<br /><br />Also note that by varying your alitude it is possible to navigate your balloon. That is why balloon racing and long range balloon navigation is possible.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Actually, that is why I was talking about AI vs. attempting to decide what altitude to use from Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>