Could we detect and intercept RAMA with today's tech?

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halman

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Yevaud,<br /><br />I am not sure, but I believe that Earth-based radar was used in determining the rotational period of Mercury, sometime back in the 1960,s or 70's. This was possible because the exact location of the object was known, which meant that a tightly focused pulse could be transmitted to specific co-ordinates, and receiver sensitivity could be cranked way up without worrying about trying to determine if echoes were artifacts or actual echoes, because only echoes arriving in a window microseconds wide could be returns from Mercury. Everything else could be discarded.<br /><br />To scan a wide area, an extremely powerful pulse must be transmitted uniformly over a sector, and the sector carefully scanned for echoes. Then, the process must be repeated to insure that actual echoes are being registered, and not artifacts caused by circut noise, solar interference, etcetera. If we know where exactly to look, we can discern incredibly faint signals, as the Deep Space Tracking Network does routinely. But to search for an object, we have to examine every echo, and the more we increase receiver sensitivity, the more the noise floor will obscure extremely faint echoes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>
 
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yevaud

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Your second paragraph succintly states the problems involved. Not to mention, there is no Radar system existant that is even remotely powerful enogh to do so. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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docm

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Forget radar; what about something the size of RAMA showing up on widefield telescopes already in place? IIRC RAMA was not black. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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yevaud

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That's an entirely different affair. Although, even so, it'd require someone to actually be watching. We don't do so systematically, even counting all Astronomers and skilled amateurs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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alokmohan

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halman ,there lies the difficuly.Any way passing asteroids may escape our notice.
 
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qso1

Guest
Rama would not be detectable to most telescopes regarless of its color at the distance originally specified in this thread for detection.<br /><br />The larger scopes that might detect it are already in nearly constant use by astronomers with other projects. You would also have to be extremely lucky to know what part of the sky to point the scope at. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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yevaud

Guest
Not color, Albedo.<br /><br />Remember, it was supposed to be 40km in length. Certainly with a high enough Albedo, it would be quite reflective, and moving to boot.<br /><br />You're precisely right about the sheer scale of the night sky and the constant useage of all capable telescopes, of course. Time on them is hard to come by. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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qso1

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I should have mentioned albedo but I was thinking along the lines of color. Thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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willpittenger

Guest
If any telescopes had a chance, it would be the ones that look for comets in that region of space. There are not many of those. Comets just aren't bright enough out there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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qso1

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I'm not aware of any comets observed at the distance of Pluto or beyond because of just what you said. They are not bright enough...thats because they haven't been heated up enough to release the dust, gasses, and particulates that form the tail.<br /><br />If a Rama type vessel were bright enough, it might be spotted but that would entail a lot of luck, or a lot of observers looking on a regular basis. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
 
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alokmohan

Guest
So upto now we are not lucky to see Lord Rama.Rama is our incarnation of Lord Visnu.
 
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alokmohan

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Post of 2nd october.He was talking of detection of two objects in his last para.
 
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halman

Guest
alokmohan,<br /><br />I was describing the difficulties and limitations of using radar for detecting asteroids. Because we cannot begin to build a transmitter of any radiation as powerful as the Sun, I suggest that we use the Sun, by selecting a wavelength that will provide us with an accurate position of an object, but can be isolated from the background noise easily.<br /><br />In order to be able to detect the objects that lie between the Earth and the Sun, receivers must be placed sunward of Earth, at least as far away as the orbit of Venus. Any object in the inner Solar System is going to emit blackbody radiation, which can be detected at considerable distances. By varying the amount of receiver sensitivity, we can tune out objects outside of our selected scan area, such as distant suns, something which is very hard to do with visible light.<br /><br />We could protect ourselves from asteroids that normally orbit inside the diameter of the Earth's orbit by building 5 or 6 infared detecters and launching them into an orbit similiar to that of Venus. Each detecter would have a field of view of about 140 degrees, so that any object should be visible to at least two detecters. By using triangulation, the exact location of the object could be established, and, after observing it for a short time, its orbit established. This is the only way that I can think of that we can protect ourselves from being blindsided from a rock that we could never see from Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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The only problem with looking from Venus' orbit is that by the time you detect it, it is heading away from the sun.<br />If it is going to hit earth on the way out, there's barely enough time to bend over and KYAG. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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flynn

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I believe concensus of opinion is that we'd have to be excedingly lucky and someone would have to be looking in the right direction at just the right time and recognise what they were seeing when they saw it.<br /><br />Chances are minimal. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>
 
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yevaud

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Not impossible, but minimal. Exactly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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halman

Guest
MeteorWayne,<br /><br />I think that you are presupposing that any object we detect is going to be on a collision course with Earth. While that is possible, it is unlikely. But developing a catalog of objects which normally lie sunward of Earth will probably come up with a few which might intercept at some future time. Right now, we have no way of detecting these objects en masse, and therefore would have no warning whatsoever!<br /><br />We don't know how many of these objects there are, or how many are able to cross Earth's orbit. We only know that there are asteroids which nominally orbit inside of Earth's orbit, but sometimes cross her orbit, and that we usually cannot detect them until they have done so. I believe that they are called the Icarus group. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
You're right, my thoughts were deflected in the direction of impact.<br />Your point is quite valid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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willpittenger

Guest
We could use gravity to detect them. Trouble is we have to do one (or better yet, both) of the following:<br /><br />*Analyze the theoretical trajectories versus observed trajectories of as many objects in the solar system as possible. Any analomies that crop up would be a potenial RADAR target that we know the range for. This would require massive computing power and probably won't happen any time soon. However, properly done, it could reveal much about our solar system -- especially if you run those orbits forward and back until all anomolies appear. Each time you turn an anomoly into a known object, you rerun the calculations again and look for more anomolies.<br /><br />*Analyze the gravity waves that you encounter. We have no proven way to detecting them yet, but if your instruments were sensistive enough, you might detect small asteroids. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>
 
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