Could we detect and intercept RAMA with today's tech?

[willpittenger]

In the book <i>RAMA</i> by Arthur C. Clarke, an fast moving object is detected at the extreme edge of the solar system. They then launch a probe that intercepts RAMA in a flyby. I do not know the details from the book there, but for this discussion, let's assume the book has RAMA being detected just past Pluto's orbit and is moving at .05 C.<br /><br />Ignoring the fiction (assume we are talking about a fast moving rock):<br />1. Could we detect it we detect it at the same point?<br />2. Could we launch that probe and have it successfully complete the intercept? One complication: The book has the probe split up into 3 pieces (I think) just before the flyby. This lets the probe photograph the entire surface and determine RAMA's mass (the density was about that of air). <br /><br />Edit: Lowered speed for example and clarified the "Ignoring the fiction" part. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

I havn't read RAMA and am not familiar with the specifics of the craft your talking about. However, at .5C, the only way we could launch an intercept mission is to have an intercept system already operational. One that we would somehow have to know what type of threat it is to deal with which would determine the intercept weapon or weapons of choice.<br /><br />At .5 % SOL, the RAMA probe would reach earth in less than a day if detected just past Pluto assuming .5% C is 50 %. Even at 5% it would take only three months give or take a couple weeks.<br /><br />My answer would be no to interception which assumes we would be able to detect it. Detection would however be by pure chance almost. A spurious signal perhaps picked up by the DSN. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[flynn]

Thats way faster than Rama, I think it took about a year to get to perihelion. The probe was launched from Mars and "we" already had considerable space inferstructure.<br /><br />Over to the clever people to see what we could get into space on intercept in that time.<br /><br />Incidently, Rama was not threatening (Of course Earthlings didn't know that) but it didn't stay around long either. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[qso1]

flynn:<br />Thats way faster than Rama, I think it took about a year to get to perihelion. The probe was launched from Mars and "we" already had considerable space inferstructure.<br /><br />Me:<br />Exactly, although I didn't read the book, I know that today we probably couldn't intercept such an object without a truly risky crash program for a RAMA vehicle or whatever it is going .5% C. And if it was 50% C, forget it.<br /><br />On the speed, I went by the figure willpittenger posted. I initially thought 50% C but thought maybe 5% C because he had a period in front of the 5. How fast was RAMA going? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[flynn]

I'd have to check when I get some time, I'm confusing what I remember from Rendevous with Rama and Rama II as well and its been years since I read either. In one of them I believe Rama was deaccelerating. I'll check later unless someone can remember first.<br /><br />One point from Rendevous with Rama is that the Astroid that stuck earth (Italy I think) that prompted the "Spaceguard" deep space detection system to spot incoming astroids happened on September 11th.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[qso1]

I'll have to check that book out myself. Being fairly up on military developments in general, at least those in the public domain. I can say were not really ready for any sort of deep space threat, much less an intelligently controlled one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[subzero788]

"Rendezvous with Rama" is a great book (and series), and I thoroughly recommend it! It's been about 5 years since I've read it so like flynn I've forgotten most of the details, but I believe it is set a couple of hundred years into the future. In the story they spot it with a network set up to detect potential asteriod threats, and they initially think it's an asteriod. IIRC RAMA was a cylinder about 50 km long and 20 km so I don't think we could spot an object this small from pluto orbit using current technology.<br /><br />I think the ship that is sent to intercept Rama just happens to be in the right postition for rendezvous and is the only manned vessel capable of reaching the object before it leaves the solar system. So I'm guessing at the present time we would have no hope of reaching it in time. As for the speed, well I'm sure it was moving relatively fast but no way was it .5 C!<br /><br />More info on Rama here

 

[vogon13]

Even with an advanced fusion drive, the MacArthur was barely able to rondevous with the Motie 'Crazyeddie' probe at 6%C.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Yes, and look at what Rod Blaine had to do to intercept it. Rough on the ship and crew. Accelerate at 3 G's for hours on end?<br /><br />No thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[flynn]

I was thinking a flyby with a limited sensor package at best depending on how close it comes. Thats if there is a launch vehicle ready somewhere with a payload that can be shunted. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[yevaud]

That, of course, is the ability we don't have yet. That is to say, the ability to have something fully prepped (or nearly so), so that it can launch to intercept or flyby in short order. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[flynn]

If we had something enter the solar system of artifical origin thats just passing through and we have a once in a lifetime of the species opertunity of at least getting a flyby with some sort of sensor suit then anything on the pad at the time could take a back seat. I'm thinking perhaps theres a Ariane 5 ES being earmarked for a future ATV launch it doesn't take a massive stretch of imagination to suggest the ATV gets put on the backburner to allow a sensor suite perhaps based on the "off the shelf and tried and tested" Mars/Venus Express probes have a go. I'm not suggesting that such a rush job would work but it wouls at least call for an attempt.<br /><br />This is just what could be put together on an ESA front I'm sure Nasa could come up with something else. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[josh_simonson]

Except for the fact that it takes a decade to get out around pluto. It'd have to come VERY close to earth for us to be able to respond any sooner.

 

[flynn]

In the book I believe Rama passed through the Solar system<br /><br />i.e. it was detected beyond Pluto and travelled through possibly even inside Mercurys orbit then back out the other side.<br /><br />Obviously the 'plan' I mentioned above would be very dependant on how close Rama came to Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[christine16]

maybe this spaceship can help?

 

[nyarlathotep]

If the hippies let us build project Orion we could easily intercept RAMA, even at ~100km/s relative to earth.

 

[flynn]

Link doesn't load, or is it just me? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#800080">"All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring" - <strong>Chuck Palahniuk</strong>.</font> </div>

 

[christine16]

strange, maybe try refresh?

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>happened on September 11th.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Not 9-11-2001 I hope. If so, Clarke must be prophetic. He would have only had the location and nature of the event wrong. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I think the ship that is sent to intercept Rama just happens to be in the right postition for rendezvous and is the only manned vessel capable of reaching the object before it leaves the solar system.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Actually, I was talking about an unmanned probe they used to detect Rama's mass and photograph the exterior. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Ignore the "intelligent" part. That's why I asked that everyone ignore the fiction. It is enough to assume that a fast moving object is out there on a course that will take it through the inner solar system, probably to at least Venus's orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[christine16]

http://bertran.uni.cc/exploring-the-universe/robotic-explorers/ion-thrusters-propel-nasa-into-future.html<br /><br />maybe this one can go at it? <br /><br />

 

[willpittenger]

I doubt it. Rama would be moving very fast. I may have dramatically overestimated for the original post, but even so, it would moving too fast for something like that. I doubt the SM module would even have enough fuel for the DeltaV needed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Please note that I made changes to the original post to reflect directions the conversations have taken. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Actually, there is a problem with using Anti-matter reactors to throw stuff out the back end like chemical rockets do. The reactions caused by anti-matter leave nothing behind to throw out -- except radiation. You have collect that and use it as electricity. The reactor could power something like an ion engine, but more likely you would need a new type of propulsion system. Star Trek's "impluse" engine comes to mind. (That does not use anti-matter though.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>