DO ELECTRONS FLOW ACROSS SPACE FOR THE SUN TO US?

[acsinnz]

If the answer is yes, then at what speed are they moving into our orbit?  Is there any websites with  info on the speed the electrons leave the sun? 

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If the answer is yes, then at what speed are they moving into our orbit?&nbsp; Is there any websites with&nbsp; info on the speed the electrons leave the sun?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by acsinnz</DIV></p><p>Most definitely, yes.&nbsp; These electrons are part of the Solar winds and can reach speeds between 1 and 2 million km per hour.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If the answer is yes, then at what speed are they moving into our orbit?&nbsp; Is there any websites with&nbsp; info on the speed the electrons leave the sun?&nbsp; <br />Posted by acsinnz</DIV></p><p>This site has some info about solar electrons:<br />http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/ace/ace_rtsw_data.html</p><p>It gives you density.</p><p>For solar wind speed see this:</p><p>http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/ace/MAG_SWEPAM_2h.html</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[origin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If the answer is yes, then at what speed are they moving into our orbit?&nbsp; Is there any websites with&nbsp; info on the speed the electrons leave the sun?&nbsp; <br />Posted by acsinnz</DIV><br /><br />You state "moving into our orbit".&nbsp; I am not sure what you mean by this so just to clarify, electrons&nbsp;do not orbit the&nbsp;earth per se,&nbsp;they can and do become trapped in&nbsp;the earths&nbsp;magnetic field though.</p><p>Also it is not so much that the electrons flow from the sun to us - it is more like the electrons and protons stream out from the sun in all directions and we (the earth) get in the way of some of that outflow.&nbsp; The vast majority of the solar wind just continues out to intersteller space. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Also it is not so much that the electrons flow from the sun to us - it is more like the electrons and protons stream out from the sun in all directions and we (the earth) get in the way of some of that outflow.&nbsp; The vast majority of the solar wind just continues out to intersteller space. <br /> Posted by origin</DIV></p><p>http://www2.nict.go.jp/y/y223/simulation/realtime/home.html </p><p>You can download a simulation of what this process looks like from the link above.&nbsp; As origin notes, it's more of a "flow pattern", that "surrounds" and flows into the Earth's magnetosphere.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The answer is yes, and they're moving at warp speed, obviously. Warp factor two, to be precise. <br />Posted by jim48</DIV><br /><br />That is not correct. Warp ffactor 2 is faster than light, while electron flow is in hundreds of thousands of km/sec <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[acsinnz]

<p>Hi Meteor</p><p>THat SWPE ACE RTSW MAG & SWEPAM website is absolutely now time update and great.</p><p>If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.28 hrs</p><p>The Bz pulsed up from 1 to 6</p><p>Phi &nbsp;&nbsp; pulsed down from 330 to 190 units</p><p>Speed pulsed up&nbsp; from 420 t0 440 km/sec</p><p>&nbsp;If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.50 hrs</p><p>Speed pulsed down from 430 to 400</p><p>Density pulsed down 2.2 to 1</p><p>Temp pulsed down &nbsp; 5.1 t0 4.3</p><p>If there is always a 22 minute delay between these pulsings then this is very, very significant,&nbsp; as we need to know WHY&nbsp;</p>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi MeteorTHat SWPE ACE RTSW MAG & SWEPAM website is absolutely now time update and great.If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.28 hrsThe Bz pulsed up from 1 to 6Phi &nbsp;&nbsp; pulsed down from 330 to 190 unitsSpeed pulsed up&nbsp; from 420 t0 440 km/sec&nbsp;If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.50 hrsSpeed pulsed down from 430 to 400Density pulsed down 2.2 to 1Temp pulsed down &nbsp; 5.1 t0 4.3If there is always a 22 minute delay between these pulsings then this is very, very significant,&nbsp; as we need to know WHY&nbsp; <br /> Posted by acsinnz</DIV></p><p>You may want to check out the cadence of the instruments themselves.&nbsp; I have seen instances in satellite images where the cadence of the equipment is ultimately creating what appear to be 'timing patterns'.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not familiar enough with the ACE instruments to say whether or not this may play a role in these "pulsings'.&nbsp; The sun itself does seem to have a number of rythmic "patterns" however, so what you suggest may be possible. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi MeteorTHat SWPE ACE RTSW MAG & SWEPAM website is absolutely now time update and great.If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.28 hrsThe Bz pulsed up from 1 to 6Phi &nbsp;&nbsp; pulsed down from 330 to 190 unitsSpeed pulsed up&nbsp; from 420 t0 440 km/sec&nbsp;If you can look at the 1500 chart of 2008-12-11 then you will see something quite significant. At approx 15.50 hrsSpeed pulsed down from 430 to 400Density pulsed down 2.2 to 1Temp pulsed down &nbsp; 5.1 t0 4.3If there is always a 22 minute delay between these pulsings then this is very, very significant,&nbsp; as we need to know WHY&nbsp; <br /> Posted by acsinnz</DIV></p><p>It is possible you just saw a geomagnetic storm or substorm...without seeing the intensity profile or the DST values it's hard to say.&nbsp; I don't think it's a pattern. Over the past two summers I've been staring at 15 years of solar wind energetic particle at very high resolution trying to create a predictive model based on patterns and correlations with parameters like speed, Bz, etc, and there aren't any...at least, any that the neural net I was using could find.&nbsp; It is believed this is a highly chaotic process.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p>Here is the site of the group I worked with, you can look at a bunch of cool plots for a large range of electron energies and see all sorts of particle injections.&nbsp; Unfortunately, we don't have sophisticated enough modeling techniques to predict them...yet. &nbsp; http://leadbelly.lanl.gov/lanl_ep_data/ </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The answer is yes, and they're moving at warp speed, obviously. Warp factor two, to be precise. <br />Posted by jim48</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;What,&nbsp; precisely, is "Warp factor two" ?<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[origin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;What,&nbsp; precisely, is "Warp factor two" ? <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>A reference to <em><strong>Star Trek</strong>.</em><br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A reference to Star Trek. <br />Posted by origin</DIV></p><p>I know that but the poster claimed that it was a precise speed for the electrons.&nbsp; I am waiting for him to&nbsp;precisely define what he is talking about. I don't think you will find anywhere in the Star Trek episodes any definition of what "warp factor" really means other than faster than light by virtue of traveling through hyperspace, whatever that is.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I know that but the poster claimed that it was a precise speed for the electrons.&nbsp; I am waiting for him to&nbsp;precisely define what he is talking about. Posted by <strong>DrRocket</strong></DIV><br /><br />My guess is you'll regret having asked.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[Saiph]

<p>oh my, you will indeed be sorry.&nbsp; Here's a taste:&nbsp; </p><p>http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>btw, I am by no means a serious trekkie. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[acsinnz]

<p class="MsoNormal">Hi UF<span style="font-size:12pt"></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">and everyone</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">&nbsp;</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">I feel sure that the solar wind may be in chaos coming inwards but I believe it also contains a magnetic flux return signal to make sure planets are kept in their correct orbits.<span>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>The incoming DC electrons move at the speed of the protons H+ ions they pair with in the wind but the return feedback AC magnetic flux [electron magnoflux enclosures] move at or around the speed of light; thus correcting the orbit within ten minutes.</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">&nbsp;</span></p> <span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial">If the solar wind stops and the magnetic attraction between sun and planet fails then in my opinion we will fly off into outer space.<span>&nbsp; </span>Remember WMAP cannot find 73% of the dark energy.<span>&nbsp; </span>Well, it could be that the extra force required to balance the universe is magnetic!<span>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi UF and everyone &nbsp; I feel sure that the solar wind may be in chaos coming inwards</DIV></p><p>The particle flow seems to be mostlly oriented in an "outbound" direction, at least in the LASCO type images. </p><p> Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>but I believe it also contains a magnetic flux return signal to make sure planets are kept in their correct orbits. </DIV></p><p>What exactly is a "magnetic flux return signal"?</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The incoming DC electrons move at the speed of the protons H+ ions they pair with in the wind but the return feedback AC magnetic flux [electron magnoflux enclosures] move at or around the speed of light; thus correcting the orbit within ten minutes. </DIV></p><p>I think you'll have a tough time demonstrating that planetary orbits are directly affected by the solar wind flow.&nbsp; It is not particularly dense, nor is it likely to have a significant influence on something the size of the Earth. </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> If the solar wind stops and the magnetic attraction between sun and planet fails then in my opinion we will fly off into outer space.</DIV></p><p>Magnetic attraction/repulsion isn't typically dependent upon the flow of any baryonic forms of matter between the objects, so I'm unclear why you figure that solar wind movement, or lack thereof, would necessarily change planetary orbits. </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp; Remember WMAP cannot find 73% of the dark energy.</DIV></p><p>Actually, WMAP can't find *any* dark energy.&nbsp; &nbsp; All WMAP tells us is that the universe is *somewhat* homogenously distrubuted. </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp; Well, it could be that the extra force required to balance the universe is magnetic!&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> Posted by acsinnz</DIV></p><p>FYI, I did start a recent dark energy thread that is based upon a paper that suggests that dark energy can be explained in terms of an electromagnetic field.&nbsp; You might enjoy that paper. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

This website is the ONLY place I have ever seen so many people who think everything is a damn magnet.&nbsp; Solar wind has nothing to do with planetary orbits.&nbsp; At all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This website is the ONLY place I have ever seen so many people who think everything is a damn magnet.</DIV></p><p>Um, last time I checked the sun and the Earth are thought to have a magnetic field. </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Solar wind has nothing to do with planetary orbits.&nbsp; At all. <br /> Posted by UFmbutler</DIV></p><p>The term "at all" is probably not accurate in the final analysis, but I certainly agree that it's not a major factor.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Um, last time I chacked the sun and the Earth are thought to have a magnetic field. The term "at all" is probably not accurate in the final analsys, but I certainly agree that it's not a major factor.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>You know what I meant, and you know I am very well aware of the magnetic properties of the sun and earth.&nbsp; His suggestion has absolutely no merit.&nbsp; It would be like saying I am being pulled toward Jupiter.&nbsp; It is true but it is trivial and annoying to nitpick about forces that are so obviously ignorable.&nbsp; If the sun had no magnetic field we'd still orbit it.&nbsp; Maybe the attractive/repulsive force would decrease by a TINY fraction, but do we gain anything in our understanding by including that in our discussion?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; It is just misleading and pointless, and you know you are just being annoying by pointing it out. &nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You know what I meant, and you know I am very well aware of the magnetic properties of the sun and earth.&nbsp; His suggestion has absolutely no merit.&nbsp; It would be like saying I am being pulled toward Jupiter.&nbsp; It is true but it is trivial and annoying to nitpick about forces that are so obviously ignorable.&nbsp; If the sun had no magnetic field we'd still orbit it.&nbsp; Maybe the attractive/repulsive force would decrease by a TINY fraction, but do we gain anything in our understanding by including that in our discussion?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; It is just misleading and pointless, and you know you are just being annoying by pointing it out. &nbsp; <br /> Posted by UFmbutler</DIV></p><p>You are evidently easily annoyed especially since I actually agreed with you that it would not be a major factor. &nbsp;</p><p> Is it my breath? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You are evidently easily annoyed especially since I actually agreed with you that it would not be a major factor. &nbsp; Is it my breath? <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>You implied I wasn't aware of the sun/earth magnetic field.&nbsp; Of course I'm going to get annoyed if you insult my intelligence. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You implied I wasn't aware of the sun/earth magnetic field.&nbsp; Of course I'm going to get annoyed if you insult my intelligence. <br /> Posted by UFmbutler</DIV></p><p>Well, it's just that you seemed to be "annoyed" at the idea of treating them as magnets.&nbsp; They do in fact have a magnetic field around them so I don't see a problem with expecting some sort of "small' magnetic field interaction between them.&nbsp; I wasn't trying to insult you, just point out to you that do posses a magnetic field so it't not irrational to treat them as magnets. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well, it's just that you seemed to be "annoyed" at the idea of treating them as magnets.&nbsp; They do in fact have a magnetic field around them so I don't see a problem with expecting some sort of "small' magnetic field interaction between them.&nbsp; I wasn't trying to insult you, just point out to you that do posses a magnetic field so it't not irrational to treat them as magnets. <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>The point I was trying to make by saying they aren't magnets is they aren't.&nbsp; The sun is a star, the Earth is a planet.&nbsp; They have magnetic fields that do things, but by calling them "magnets" implies it is the dominant force.&nbsp; It is not irrational to study their magnetic properties as I well know, but it IS irrational to assume every observable phenomenon including orbits is due to such properties..not that you do, but there are plenty of people on this board who do. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene]

<p>somehow, I am getting a feeling of 'deja vu' with this thread....</p><p><br /><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/5/bfad6b77-f0d7-4075-85be-fbd16c605516.Medium.jpg" alt="" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font size="1">petet = <font color="#800000"><strong>silylene</strong></font></font></p><p align="center"><font size="1">Please, please give me my handle back !</font></p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>somehow, I am getting a feeling of 'deja vu' with this thread.... <br /> Posted by petet</DIV></p><p>Here we go again <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt="Surprised" title="Surprised" /></p><p>I think the scientific term is called "statistically insignificant".&nbsp; Of course there is magnetic (electro and otherwise) interactions between the sun and the planets, but the effects are statistically insignificant pertaining to the orbits.&nbsp; To insinuate otherwise is ridiculous.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>