Does the Big Bang theory put us at the center of the Universe?

[ASTROSTONER]

Doesn't the backward extrapolation calculations assume we are the center of the Universe?
If the universe is 13.7 Byo wouldn't A galaxy 13 Billion light years away would be able to see the edge of the Universe?
I dont think this is true. Surely we are not the center of the universe.

 

[ASTROSTONER]

with JWST can we not see back in time to 320 million years after the Big Bang in all directions? Does that not put us in the center?

 

[ASTROSTONER]

They say it started plank size and grew to its current size, but there is no center. That makes no sense to me. How could something finite not have a center?

 

[rod]

If you use cosmology calculators like https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/help/cosmology_calc.html, https://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/toolbox/calculators.html, https://www.kempner.net/cosmic.php, my answer is yes, the math works out using Earth as the frame of reference for light time distance or look back distance and comoving radial distances, most of those distances we cannot see today. GR math allows the Earth to be at the center of an expanding universe, science does not want this because it makes Earth look special It seems in cosmology the Copernican principle must be used vs. proven but the GR math for expanding universe does not need a center but Earth could still be there too

 

[Atlan0001]

In the infinity every point is center. It has already been recognized that even in this local-finite universe, every point of it is about 14 billion light years from the horizon.

Horizon works this way. It is 14 billion light years in every direction there is from Earth. A planet A is approximately 6-trillion x 1-billion miles from Earth, no matter the direction. The horizon is 14-billion light years in every direction from that planet A. Planet B is 6-trillion times 1-billion miles from planet A and twice that distance in space from Earth, but the horizon is still 14 billion light years from planet B in Every direction there is.

Planet C is 1-thousand times 6 trillion times 1-billion miles from planet B which is far distant from planet A and farther distant from Earth. But the horizon is still 14 billion light years from planet C, the same as it is 14-billion light years from planet A, and the same as it is 14-billion light years from Earth. And so on and on, and on, the collapsed horizon a constant of 14-billion light years from every concurrent point -- of an infinity of points -- in the universe. All that infinity of points, every point of that infinity without exception, being the center of the universe. The universe expands to infinity in space even if not a single point of an infinity of points moved an inch, but not to eternity in time (verse meaning turn, and turn standing, too, for turnover (a lot of turnovers at all times, in parallel process)).

 

[ASTROSTONER]

In the infinity every point is center. It has already been recognized that even in this local-finite universe, every point of it is about 14 billion light years from the horizon.

Horizon works this way. It is 14 billion light years in every direction there is from Earth. A planet A is approximately 6-trillion x 1-billion miles from Earth, no matter the direction. The horizon is 14-billion light years in every direction from that planet A. Planet B is 6-trillion times 1-billion miles from planet A and twice that distance in space from Earth, but the horizon is still 14 billion light years from planet B in Every direction there is.

Planet C is 1-thousand times 6 trillion times 1-billion miles from planet B which is far distant from planet A and farther distant from Earth. But the horizon is still 14 billion light years from planet C, the same as it is 14-billion light years from planet A, and the same as it is 14-billion light years from Earth. And so on and on, and on, the collapsed horizon a constant of 14-billion light years from every concurrent point -- of an infinity of points -- in the universe. All that infinity of points, every point of that infinity without exception, the center of the universe.

can this be modeled or is this just fantasy?

 

[billslugg]

I have good news and bad news:
- The good news is the Earth is at the center of the Universe as viewed from Earth.
- The bad news is every spot in the universe is also at the center of the Universe as viewed from that spot.

 

[rod]

Keep in mind that the cosmology calculators using FLRW metric for space expanding, do not show an infinite universe area but a comoving radial distance as measured from Earth, about 46 billion light years radius where the CMBR redshift about 1100.

 

[rod]

can this be modeled or is this just fantasy?

Stephen Hawking's most famous prediction could mean that everything in the universe is doomed to evaporate, new study says

A new theory has radically revised Stephen Hawking's 1974 theory of black holes to predict that all objects with mass may eventually disappear. Stephen Hawking's most famous prediction could mean that everything in the universe is doomed to evaporate, new study says : Read more

forums.space.com

IMO, if this new QM math is correct, there can never be a cyclic universe with infinity. All that we see today will evaporate someday

 

[ASTROSTONER]

- The bad news is every spot in the universe is also at the center of the Universe as viewed from that spot.

Am i wrong to say this implies the size of the universe is infinite?

If the Big Bang universe started at plank size and grew to its current size, At which point in time did it go to infinity?

 

[Atlan0001]

Am i wrong to say this implies the size of the universe is infinite?

If the Big Bang universe started at plank size and grew to its current size, At which point in time did it go to infinity?

Separate space from time. It means the space of the universe, the universes, 'is' infinite. It means the age of universes, as measured by the longest-lived age of things that make them up, 'isn't'.

You can see and tell time out to point of collapse into Horizon constant and the Mirror that mirrors back photons in photon flood (Horizon constant, essentially the 'wall' behind the Mirror that it coalesces and that will always front it). As to space, you can't see or tell space whatsoever.

 

[Adoni Yannop]

Doesn't the backward extrapolation calculations assume we are the center of the Universe?
If the universe is 13.7 Byo wouldn't A galaxy 13 Billion light years away would be able to see the edge of the Universe?
I dont think this is true. Surely we are not the center of the universe.

What Modern Cosmology Says Is That Every Observer In The Universe Will Appear To Be At The Center Of The Universe And That Their Personal Galactic Group Will Be Like Ours Crunching Instead Of Expanding!!

Question): Since Every Observer's Local Galactic Is Given To Appear As Crunching To The Local Observer); Then); Are None Of The Universe's Local Galactic Groups Expanding??

Also, Interesting Side Note): Modern Cosmology States Unequivocally That Galaxies Are Physically Standing Still As The Space Between The Galaxies Is Expanding At Superluminal Speeds And That's OK Because Space Between The Galaxies Can Expand At Superluminal Speeds Even Though Objects Can't Travel At Superluminal Speeds!!

BUTTE Modern Astrophysicists Never Reconcile Their Postulate That While The Galaxies Stand Still, The Space Between The Galaxies Expands And That This Expansion Of Space Results In The Physical Separation Of Galaxies At Superluminal Speeds Even As The Galaxies Are Given To Be Physically Standing Still!!

The Main Point Here Is That The "Popular" "Big Bang" Omnipotent Absurd Perpetual Energy Machine "Singularity" Given As The Maker Of Heaven And Earth And Everything Visible And Invisible Never Existed And That The Universe Evolved Neutrons From The Tiniest Particle Of Mass In The Universe The God Particle 1 (GP1) Defined As The Tiniest Particle Of Mass In The Universe, The Gaseous Pressurized Medium Of Electromagnetic Waves And The Building Block Of All Matter And Energy!!

 

[billslugg]

Am i wrong to say this implies the size of the universe is infinite?

If the Big Bang universe started at plank size and grew to its current size, At which point in time did it go to infinity?

The Universe is considered to be finite in size, but unbounded.

Its size is determined by the distance we see the farthest galaxies. But if one were to go there, there would be no edge.

 

[Catastrophe]

The concept of "infinity" is a mathematical abstraction, and has no provable influence on any form of "reality". By definition, any knowledge "we think" that we have, is limited to the specific abstractions of an individual's "observable universe" (small 'u').

Cat

 

[ASTROSTONER]

The Universe is considered to be finite in size, but unbounded.

Its size is determined by the distance we see the farthest galaxies. But if one were to go there, there would be no edge.

no edge? not sure what you mean. My understanding is space is infinite but the universe is not. if one went to the furthest galaxy we can see would they find any galaxies further out at their new horizon or just empty space?

 

[murgatroyd]

no edge? not sure what you mean. My understanding is space is infinite but the universe is not. if one went to the furthest galaxy we can see would they find any galaxies further out at their new horizon or just empty space?

According to current understanding, we cannot go there, ever. Not even if we had ultra-fast spaceships moving at 99 percent of the speed of light and immortal astronauts immune to feeling boredom. The reason being that "dark energy" is pushing space apart, so that the distance to the farthest points is increasing the most, at such a rate that these points recede from us faster than we can hope to approach them.

time=0
|>> (spaceship)
|--------------x (galaxy 13 billion lightyears distant from Earth)

t=+1 billion years
|->>
|----------------x

t=+13 billion years
|-------------->>
|-------------------------------------x

At the start, the target galaxy is 13 billion light years away. After a billion years of travel*, our astronauts in their spaceship ">>" have moved almost a billion light years closer to the original target "x", but that galaxy is now more distant than it was at the start.

After 13 billion years of travel, our astronauts have moved almost 13 billion light years closer to where the target galaxy was first seen, but the space "out there" has receded even faster in the meantime, and our astronauts are forced to concede they will never reach their target.

*Due to time dilation, the time aboard the spaceship perceived by the astronauts will be much less ... but still longer than human lifetimes.

 

[billslugg]

no edge? not sure what you mean. My understanding is space is infinite but the universe is not. if one went to the furthest galaxy we can see would they find any galaxies further out at their new horizon or just empty space?

From Earth, we can see an edge to the Universe, a distance beyond which there are no more galaxies. It is symmetrical around us, same distance in all directions. If we went to that edge, we would again see a symmetrical view with galaxies in all directions and a limit beyond which we could not see.

 

[ASTROSTONER]

From Earth, we can see an edge to the Universe, a distance beyond which there are no more galaxies. It is symmetrical around us, same distance in all directions. If we went to that edge, we would again see a symmetrical view with galaxies in all directions and a limit beyond which we could not see.

if this is true then how can the universe be considered finite in size? Is there a graphic that could shed some light on the size of the finite universe with no edge? I think we have different ideas on what "finite" means. To me edge is part of the definition.

 

[billslugg]

From any one spot we look at how far we can see and that is considered the universe. We are at the center of a spherical surface. The surface being where recessional velocity goes FTL. This sphere has a finite size thus the Universe is considered to be finite. If you want you can include the area outside the sphere in which case the Universe would be infinite, but cosmologists don't look at it that way.

As one moves towards the edge it receeds such that we always see ourselves at the center of the same size bubble. Thus the Universe is unbounded.

"I think we have different ideas on what "finite" means. To me edge is part of the definition." - ASTROSTONER

The Earth surface has a finite area but there is no edge. Same thing can happen with volumes.

 

[ASTROSTONER]

The Earth surface has a finite area but there is no edge. Same thing can happen with volumes.

ok i guess the word edge is where we got hung up. Lets use boundary instead.

"The Universe is considered to be finite in size, but unbounded."

Define Finite:
fi·nite
adjective

1. having limits or bounds.
   
   

Define unbounded:
having no limits or bounds.

quite confusing


let's pretend we can teleport and so the expansion doesn't affect our travel. could we ever reach the unbounded boundry?

 

[murgatroyd]

let's pretend we can teleport and so the expansion doesn't affect our travel. could we ever reach the unbounded boundry?

Maybe (if the universe beyond what is observable is not infinite, and if it is not curved so that you end up in the same spot you started). If so, perhaps we would end up at a plexiglass wall with child gods curiously staring at us

 

[billslugg]

let's pretend we can teleport and so the expansion doesn't affect our travel. could we ever reach the unbounded boundry?

No, there no boundary. Where is the boundary on the Earth's surface? No matter where you go on the Earth, it ia always the same, a circular horizon.
Same thing happens in the Universe except in three dimensions versus two.

 

[ASTROSTONER]

No, there no boundary. Where is the boundary on the Earth's surface? No matter where you go you on the Earth, it ia always the same, a circular horizon.
Same thing happens in the Universe except in three dimensions versus two.

The boundary of earth can easily be seen as where the dirt stops. silly question.

 

[billslugg]

The boundary of earth can easily be seen as where the dirt stops. silly question.

But as you approach it, it recedes. There is no "edge" to the Earth's surface. The Earth is not a disc.

 

[Atlan0001]

According to current understanding, we cannot go there, ever. Not even if we had ultra-fast spaceships moving at 99 percent of the speed of light and immortal astronauts immune to feeling boredom. The reason being that "dark energy" is pushing space apart, so that the distance to the farthest points is increasing the most, at such a rate that these points recede from us faster than we can hope to approach them.

time=0
|>> (spaceship)
|--------------x (galaxy 13 billion lightyears distant from Earth)

t=+1 billion years
|->>
|----------------x

t=+13 billion years
|-------------->>
|-------------------------------------x

At the start, the target galaxy is 13 billion light years away. After a billion years of travel*, our astronauts in their spaceship ">>" have moved almost a billion light years closer to the original target "x", but that galaxy is now more distant than it was at the start.

After 13 billion years of travel, our astronauts have moved almost 13 billion light years closer to where the target galaxy was first seen, but the space "out there" has receded even faster in the meantime, and our astronauts are forced to concede they will never reach their target.

*Due to time dilation, the time aboard the spaceship perceived by the astronauts will be much less ... but still longer than human lifetimes.

You never space-travel 13-billion light years, there is no such thing. You never space-travel 1-light second because there is no such thing. Why?!

13-billion light years equals 13-billion years ago, a negative (-) 13 billion years. 1-light second equals 1-second ago (-).

To teleport instantaneously to an unobserved and unobservable object 300,000 kilometers away in space, relatively speaking, in time you take the observed and observable 1 light second distance (= an observed and observable minus 1 second or 1 second ago) and add 1 second of future from 1 second of past to it to make the instantaneous jump (0-point to 0-point) to the object 300,000 kilometers away (relatively speaking and no other than relative!!!!) in space.

You desperately hope the spot you want to land in is still where it was 1-second ago and still exists at all 1-second of future later!