Dune

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nag622

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I am just finishing reading Chapterhouse Dune. Unbelievable. Is there a more compelling science fiction series out there? Herbert is amazing! <br /><br />I can't believe that I've waited almost 30 years to read these! Are the Legends of Dune books as good even though they were written by Herbert's son?
 
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spaceinator

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I just watched the movie for the first time a couple of days ago. probibly the weirdest movie i've seen yet. (with possible exception of hitchhikers guide)<br />...should probibly read the book though because i have heard it's really good from everyone i knwo who's read it.
 
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chriscdc

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I've read the prelude to Dune books and the ones about the butlerian Jihad. I've only recently read Dune, Dune messiah and now half way through children of Dune.<br /><br />The books written by his son are quite good, they are far more violent but you get the impression that they are far less sophisticated than the originals. Several times you are suprised that the great military geniuses, the machine mind Omnius and the Titan generals come up with a plan that anyone with a modicum of strategic thinking would have achieved.<br />At least the original Dune managed to avoid this, mostly by avoiding the subject. Eg Harkonnens beat Atreides using financial wealth, then Muad'dib and the fremen simply being better fighters than the Sardaukar.<br /><br />The books about the Butlerian Jihad though would make a far better movie than the dune books could.
 
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nag622

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I often thought, while reading "God Emperor of Dune" how difficult it would be to make that into a movie. Unfornately great books often don't make the best movies. I mean, could you see the everyday man putting down hard earned dough to see a movie about a giant worm with a human face?
 
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lampblack

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I read the Dune series (most of it, at any rate) about 20 years ago -- great stories! The movie, by comparison, struck me as dull, overwrought, and too danged intent on cramming about five movies' worth of material into one show.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>
 
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jmilsom

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I actually disagree. I assume we are talking about the 1984 David Lynch version? Although this was a flop at the box office, there are few SciFi films that really convey effectively a sense of being in a weird and alien future. I saw parts of a later TV series - but this was simplified perhaps to make a more reachable to the masses. I appreciate Lynch for not bowing too much to such pressures. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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nag622

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Agreed, the 1984 movie was some heady stuff. I remember watching it when I was a kid and it just went way over my head. I just watched it for the cool special affects etc. It wasn't until I was older and more mature that I was able to fully appreciate it.<br /><br />The Sci-Fi Dune and subsequent Children of Dune were really watered down, and in my opinion left alot to be desired from Herbert's original masterpiece.
 
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steampower

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Dune, ugh! , that was the boring dross they inflicted on us at school, I could read the Foundation series or any of the "Classic" Science Fiction, but Herbert (and Moorcock) where (imo) just weirdos with too many illegal substances inside their bodies, more magic than science, Dune was one of my pet hates, a constant advertisment on the wonders of taking drugs and how it made you more powerfull, drugs to travel, drugs to think, special drugs only the "special" hero could take, bad science, impossible social structures, and as for the much vaunted "ecology", a one string bow with about 5 links in it, PAH!, I read all the dunes up to Worm God of Dune and gave up, boring tripe, science fiction is about science, not magical mystery starships and decadent slobs who couldn`t possibly hold onto their positions, drivel! (imo), can`t stand it (I have the DVD too, gawd knows why).<br /><br />steampower.
 
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JonClarke

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Can you be more specific? <br /><br />What bad science was there?<br /><br />What were the impossible social strucrtures?<br /><br />As for drugs: what was the drug that only the hero could make? What drug made you more powerful? Which drug was used for travel?<br /><br />If you are doing to be so damning in your critcism, you should be more specific.<br /><br />But I agree about Moorcock!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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lampblack

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<font color="yellow">(I have the DVD too, gawd knows why). </font><br /><br />Apparently it's <i>appealing</i> drivel, eh? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>
 
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steampower

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<adopts best fairground voice> here we GOooo!<br /><br />bad science:<br />multiple atomic bombs a mile or so away, no blast, thermal shock or radiation hazard,<br />worms dissolve in water, but don`t during the downpour at the end of book 1<br />another water riddle, where is all this water coming from that the Fremen are collecting to re-invigorate Dune and make it a paradise?, it`s a desert planet...no water, water is so scarce they recycle perspiration, yet they are collecting vast reservoirs of the stuff<br />they have vast technological resources but worms are an hazard to harvesters, why don`t they fit em with the jump jets the cargo lifters use to recover the harvesters?<br />and why bring back the harvester to the refinery when all you want is the spice?<br />why are they using troops rather than robots and turrets?<br />why don`t they establish scorch zones? <br />etc...etc...etc<br /><br />impossible social structures:<br />the Empire, the Navigators would own it, why tolerate a slippery oik like his Majesty (who they should know all about)<br />why send a second level navigator to have a chat?, just send some underling<br />the Harkonen would be too disfunctional to function at all, you couldn`t trust any one of them further than you could throw a worm, they would be in a permanent state of anarchy and mutual murder.<br />house of IX could not exist, in later books iirc they develop a mechanical starship drive, I`m sure the navigators would tolerate that (not).<br />Ixians would be like the Mentats, small groups employed by each house, not free to disrupt everything with whatever they come up with.<br />the sisterhood (and just about everyone else) has access to information about the future, but nobody see`s whats coming except in the vaugest terms.<br />the Fremen recycle water, we know all about that, but where do they get the food to feed all those people?, Dunes much vaunted ecology consiste of Worms, Fremen, Spice and a magical, ever increaseing, water supply,
 
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Aetius

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I actually loved the entire "Dune" series when I read it 20 years ago, as a teenager. It depicted a multipolar, very human empire which captivated my imagination.<br /><br />"Dune", like "Star Wars", is more properly considered fantasy than true science fiction in my opinion. It's like "Lord Of The Rings" meets "Lawrence Of Arabia" while tripping on LSD.<br /><br />But I <i>still</i> love it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />
 
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yevaud

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A HA! HA! HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!<br /><br />Weirdest frigging scene in the movie... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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You really need to read the book again, and to distinguish between the book(s) and the film (which perverts the book almost as much as Jackson did with LOTR):<br /><br />Bad science<br /><br /><i>multiple atomic bombs a mile or so away, no blast, thermal shock or radiation hazard</i><br /><br />There are blast effects. Not much radiation, but the explosions are underground to remove a natural barrier, and so should not release much radiation.<br /><br /><i>worms dissolve in water, but don`t during the downpour at the end of book 1 </i><br /><br />They don't, you are confusing the book with one of the more abominable inventions of the movie.<br /><br /><i>another water riddle, where is all this water coming from that the Fremen are collecting to re-invigorate Dune and make it a paradise?, it`s a desert planet...no water, water is so scarce they recycle perspiration, yet they are collecting vast reservoirs of the stuff </i><br /><br />There is a hydrologic cycle - there is atmospheric moisture, polar caps, groundwater. Arrakis is a desert planet because aquifer recharge gets trapped by the lvala stages of the worms. The water traps of the Fremen intercepts water before this can happen.<br /><br /><i>they have vast technological resources but worms are an hazard to harvesters, why don`t they fit em with the jump jets the cargo lifters use to recover the harvesters?</i><br /><br />For the same reason we don't fit jump jets to military vehicles - it is more effective to have them carried by specialised aircraft.<br /><br /><i>why bring back the harvester to the refinery when all you want is the spice?</i><br /><br />Because the worms will destroy the harvester. Spice harvesting is always a race top get enough spice to make the effort profiltable and then getting out before the worms come - they always do.<br /><br /><i>why are they using troops rather than robots and turrets?</i><br /><br />Bulterian Jihad. It is also contray to one of the central themes in the book and the Dune universe, t <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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JonClarke

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Visually, the 1984 Lynch film was a masterpiece. Very different aesthetically for almost all other SF films.<br /><br />the problem was the way the storyline was fundamentally perverted. The key to the Dune universe is the power of human abilities over those of the machine. The key to Freman victory under Paul Atreides in the book is because of superior human skills. In the fim we have the risible "Wierding modules". Plus the apalling ending where he makes it rain. Maud'Dib has many powers, but he is got a god.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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darth_elmo

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I'd like to point out for all of the folks bashing the movie that Frank Herbert himself was very proud of the David Lynch version. I have a memorial edition of <i>Dune</i> from the Easton Press; in it are epitaphs from 20 or so contemporaries of Herbert's, including a lengthy one from Harlan Ellison. Ellison relates what I just said about Herbert's pride, and also goes on to say that the man was hurt and confused by the vicious reviews the movie received.<br /><br />My point is this: if <i>anyone</i> had cause to be miffed and point out flaws in <i>Dune</i>, it would be Frank Herbert--who was (apparently) the one person in America who unabashedly loved it!
 
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JonClarke

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Yes, I have read that, which is rather suprising, given the pervision of Herbet's basic vision while keeping reasonavbly faithful to the superficial. It would be interesting to find out what Herbert actually said, to place in context, also whether he had seen the movie as a whole when he said that, or just some of the visuals. As I said, the visuals are a tour de force especiallly the baroque texture to the architecture. Di did not like the cubist shields though, or the ornithopters (but then, I haven't seen too many realistic ornithopters anyway!)<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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vogon13

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Wouldn't homeopathic principles applied to the usage of spice completely altered everything about the 'Dune' universe?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
 
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summoner

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The storyline in the movie did stray a bit from the book, but as far as scifi goes, it's easily one one of the best for at least preserving the gist of the book. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <br /><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:271px;background-color:#FFF;border:1pxsolid#999"><tr><td colspan="2"><div style="height:35px"><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/htmlSticker1/language/www/US/MT/Three_Forks.gif" alt="" height="35" width="271" style="border:0px" /></div>
 
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JonClarke

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Except that the whole point about the the superority of human abilities over a blind reliance on technology was lost. As this was a centrepiece of the whole Dune uinverse the gist of the book was not preserved.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>
 
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bdewoody

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I liked both movie versions of Dune and hope the run the mini series again on the SciFi channel. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>
 
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el_dioblo_krems

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Mostly I agree with what JonClarke said but there are a few problems I have with it. Of course I have not read the books in a while so please feel free to correct me.<br /><br />"worms dissolve in water, but don`t during the downpour at the end of book 1"<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that worms do actuay dissolve in water, and before you ask I haven't see the movie. In God Emporer doesnt the main character die (well not really die, but ceased to be one) by falling in the water? and why else would worms live in deserts?<br /><br />I do actually seemto remeber something about different levels of navigators.<br /><br />I thought that the coming trouble was not forseen because it was only viewed as a large gap in the future of mankind. A great nothing.<br /><br />Who ever it is that controls the starship they deffinetly live in a purely spice enviroment, encased in a glass sphere. However that can not be classified as another drug as it also spice.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that Paul was in a spice transe when he attached those mini worms (forget what there called) to himself and began the transformation to worm.<br /><br />And finaly I agree with you. Drugs are mentioned a lot in the book but that is because it is a fantasy representation of a possible lifestyle in the future. Drugs are in a lot of places in real life aswell, get used to it.<br /><br />As I said above please feel free to correct me if I got something wrong as I read the books a while ago. However my thoughts have not been infected by the movie so please do suggest it.
 
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lsbd

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From my somewhat faded memory of the movie, I don't recall the worm "dissolving" in water. It merely drowned and then in a last death throe puked up the crap they collected.
 
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