Dyson Sphere thread

[Catastrophe]

To keep our Mercury issue on topic, can we take Mercury as a possible location for mining - the energy possibly (??) being supplied by a Dyson sphere. Of course, if this is not possible, alternate energy must be provided.

Cat

 

[Creator223]

oof, I am not a scientist, so my possible solutions might be very naive.But I will try)

 

[Creator223]

So, actually, the human civilization must first get the maximum out of his current possible sources.And find the better way to travel between planets, than rockets.

 

[Creator223]

Because the building of Dyson Swarm can get frozen during the process, as the home planet builds it's new rockets and stuff. The rockets are too much expencive and energy-consuming. Also, probably the building might be distant operating, like the series of satellites from Mercury to Earth.

 

[Particle Article]

I remember that having an operating Dyson swarm is one of the benchmarks of civilization.

I do wonder though how to bus the electricity about. Carrying batteries- it really doesn't seem ideal some

In another thread we were discussing using a laser to send electricity through space, I found that a pretty startling thought

 

[Creator223]

hmm, I think there will be HUGE energy losts during this process

 

[Particle Article]

yeah both the laser and light collector would have significant ineffeciencies.

I was thinking of trying it myself, using a torch laser and a solar panel to see how many watts it makes- I'm curious

then set them both apart and see how much it drops after 20 feet

are you favourable to batteries in our theoretical posture?
-for I wonder how else, I guess it's a line with pretty large difficulty

 

[Catastrophe]

I remember that having an operating Dyson swarm is one of the benchmarks of civilization.

I do wonder though how to bus the electricity about. Carrying batteries- it really doesn't seem ideal some

In another thread we were discussing using a laser to send electricity through space, I found that a pretty startling thought

This is one of my major points. If you collect on Merciry's hot phase you may burn your insulation on conducting wires. Of course, since this is an impossiblr scenario (Dyson), we can transmit power diredtly by EM radiation.

Cat

 

[philip_rhoades]

My rough calculations show a 2550 km dia. disk at L1 would reduce solar radiation by 1%, effectively. [It blocks the central part of the solar disk that radiates at 2.6x that of the limb.]

Could you email me those rough calcs? I have wondering how to do that . .

Far better small islanded colony city-states, islanded stations, and specialized function facilities, spread widely in countless numbers, countless ships and boats, and countless lanes of traffic. Far better inventiveness and discoveries in countless chances, countless possibilities of evolutions, revolutions, and change (up to the invented or discovered [possible] means of going interstellar).

Yes, I think it makes more sense to start with a station at Lagrange Pt 1 and continue to build on that for a while . .

 

[Catastrophe]

Helio, it does worry me somewhat how "Dyson Sphere" is used.

Dyson sphere - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Dyson_sphere
A Dyson sphere is a hypothetical megastructure that completely encompasses a star and captures a large percentage of its power output.

My understanding of "a large percentage" would be, say, more than 75%, and I cannot see availability of raw material, or energy availability or, indeed, time to create such a large structure. As soon as one starts settling for less (Dyson partial structure) then I believe cost benefit begins to be a serious issue. What would be the payback, in terms of energy obtained to exceed energy expended?

Cat

 

[Helio]

Ok, I tossed the napkin but, since I was asked, here is what I think is correct.

I did confuse my shield dimension. Fortunately it seems to actually be 1/2 of the value I gave earlier. This shield array diameter is 1225 km.

The first image shows what that shield would look like to scale when viewing the Sun's white disk.

The radiation from the center of the Sun, surprisingly, is about 2.6x that of the radiation coming from the limb of the Sun. This is known as the CLV - center to limb variation. So, the shield will be blocking more of the more intense radiation, which I took into rough consideration to get to that 1% value in the prior post. This central zone radiation blockage applies to 0.92% of the Earth's cross-section.

But, moving out along the Earth's surface, how far would one go where the shield's disk would appear outside the solar disk, one should ask. Surprisingly, at the 1225km dia. for the shield disk, it would block about 0.8% all over the Earth.

Things like Earth's curvature, Earth's radial distance to surface, etc. were ignored. All is based on cross-sectional values, which should make very little difference, except for the amount of math necessary to tweak it a tiny bit.

Note: I see the third image has the Excel work where the right page should be on the left. [I use green highlighted cells as the input variable, and yellow highlight for results. Thus, if you have a preferred shield size, it is no problem getting instant results.]

 

[philip_rhoades]

@Helio ,

I created a Telegram group (which was inspired by the novel "K3+" by Erasmo Costa) for text and voice discussions - which brings together my interests in Radical Life Extension and preserving Human Civilisation - starting with a rotating space station and sun shade at the Sun-Earth Lagrange Point 1 - so your calculations are of great interest to me! If it is OK with you, I will post them into the Telegram group as well . .

Thanks,
Phil.

 

[Helio]

@Helio ,

I created a Telegram group (which was inspired by the novel "K3+" by Erasmo Costa) for text and voice discussions - which brings together my interests in Radical Life Extension and preserving Human Civilisation - starting with a rotating space station and sun shade at the Sun-Earth Lagrange Point 1 - so your calculations are of great interest to me! If it is OK with you, I will post them into the Telegram group as well . .

Thanks,
Phil.

Sure, they’re for all who might like them. I can send you my Excel program if you wish. I can even add energy production for any given panel efficiency and trans. efficiency.

I would expect a calculus approach would be superior to my piecemeal approach, but I knew I would enjoy trying to dream-up something with simple geometry.

BTW, since your group studies the solar disk, you might note that my avatar is an accurate image of the Sun taken in color at the McMath-Pierce solar projection room, which is why it’s not too bright to look at, or image. The color pieces are for color calibration. The Sun “ain’t yeller!”

Also, the central temp. of the Sun is 6390K, limb is 5000K. We can see deeper into the central region of a gas ball, whereas we only can see the very top of the photosphere at its limb. 200km is the rough depth estimate that I’ve seen stated.

 

[philip_rhoades]

Sure, they’re for all who might like them. I can send you my Excel program if you wish. I can even add energy production for any given panel efficiency and trans. efficiency.

That would be great! - actually, what might do if you send me that info is create a Google Sheet from it so people can play around with the numbers? - unless you want to do that?

I would expect a calculus approach would be superior to my piecemeal approach, but I knew I would enjoy trying to dream-up something with simple geometry.

Good work!

 

[Helio]

That would be great! - actually, what might do if you send me that info is create a Google Sheet from it so people can play around with the numbers? - unless you want to do that?

. Never tried that. You should be able to contact my private msg. and send me your email, if you want the Excel file.

[I did append my last post, btw.]

 

[philip_rhoades]

Never tried that. You should be able to contact my private msg. and send me your email, if you want the Excel file.

Will send a DM . .

[I did append my last post, btw.]

Do you mean something was attached? - I can't see it . .

 

[Helio]

Will send a DM . .

Got it. Will send from office tomorrow.

Do you mean something was attached? - I can't see it . .

Just the BTW section at bottom of post.

 

[philip_rhoades]

Got it. Will send from office tomorrow.

Appreciated!

Just the BTW section at bottom of post.

Ah, I see what you mean . .

 

[philip_rhoades]

@Helio ,

I put your sheet up on GD and published it to the web here:

SunShieldForEarth

tinyurl.com

When I get a chance I will work out how people can change some of the input variables to see how they affect the results.

Thanks!

Phil.

 

[Helio]

@Helio ,

I put your sheet up on GD and published it to the web here:

SunShieldForEarth

tinyurl.com

When I get a chance I will work out how people can change some of the input variables to see how they affect the results.

Thanks!

Phil.

Is that supposed to be working program where it will calculate results with different input? I could not enter, for instance, the shield diameter.

 

[JeffenatorXI]

A dyson swarm is at least a feasible topic to theorize and discuss using our existing technology as a reference. It could use known physics to partially encapsulate a star to gather energy. A dyson sphere requires we first create magical anti gravity tech to keep the structure from collapsing and that tech would have to consume less energy to operate than is generated by the sphere to make it a worthwhile venture.

So the first problem we must overcome is gravity as the sphere is not designed to orbit a star. From my perspective that really ends the discussion because to continue we have to break everything we know about physics. A would suggest that changing your topic to a dyson swarm, if you want the discussion to go further.

One more note: a dyson sphere is a sci-fi creation . Dyson originally theorized a swarm and doesn't appreciate his name associated with the sphere!

 

[IG2007]

do they still use Bessemer converters?

No, Cat, they have moved on to Linz–Donawitz-steelmaking. A wiki link for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_oxygen_steelmaking

In another thread we were discussing using a laser to send electricity through space, I found that a pretty startling thought

That is indeed a startling thought, but perhaps, it is very much feasible and logical as well. That would be much more cost effective than taking batteries through space.

A dyson sphere requires we first create magical anti gravity tech to keep the structure from collapsing and that tech would have to consume less energy to operate than is generated by the sphere to make it a worthwhile venture.

You know, we can use thrusters to make it sure that the Dyson Sphere does not fall into Sun.

But the thing is, I don't know if I am stupid but, won't building a big building around the biggest building of our Solar System lessen the amount of sunlight we already get and destroy the ecosystem of Earth?

 

[Catastrophe]

IG, I don't believe there is enough material in the Solar System (certainly not economically available) to enclose the Sun. How far out would it have to be? You can't just enclose the Chromosphere.

Cat

 

[IG2007]

IG, I don't believe there is enough material in the Solar System (certainly not economically available) to enclose the Sun. How far out would it have to be? You can't just enclose the Chromosphere.

Cat

I agree with that. But, you know, I don't fully dislike the idea of getting energy from being close to the sun. Because, you can make a dozen big satellites and put them in a close orbit around the sun and when they are full, you can send a laser beam to another satellite which would be orbiting Mercury, which will then send it to another satellite in Venus, which will send it to a satellite orbiting Earth and we can manually take that energy from that satellite. Perhaps, you will need some extra satellites, but I guess, though this idea is extremely wild, this is not bad.

 

[Catastrophe]

IG, seems OK in principle. But, as usual, there are practical difficulties. I doubt the investors would ever get their money back. Think of the difficulty of putting satellites in close orbit around the Sun. Then, as you say, sending the energy back. But it's a good idea. After all, we have been getting all our energy from the Sun for millenia. Just get a bit closer where its more concentrated.