Electric Universe, The Iron Sun, and Plasma Cosmology thread

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Nah, it is more like Birkeland never says that the sun is powered by fission, it is actually not even possible that he thought the sun was powered by fission. </DIV></p><p>First you told me he never heard of uranium, and now your fixated on fission without reading his matieral. This wilful ignorance thing is simply annoying.&nbsp; Even when I provide you with the information you request, you refuse to read it, or consider it in any way.&nbsp; He's specfically talking about getting energy out of fissionable materials by compression.&nbsp; He may not have called it "fision", but he certainly pegged serveral known radiactive isotopes which you first suggested he never heard of.</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>But you will go on your merry way making this absurd claim regardless of the facts presented to you.&nbsp; That is only one of the many examples why it is hopeless to discuss these subjects&nbsp;with you.You have your mind made up and no amount evidence to the contrary can change your mind.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> Posted by origin</DIV></p><p>I don't deny the fact that the term "fission" does not appear in his book, I simply said that you need to read what he actually wrote.&nbsp; He certainly did mention uranium and he was of the opinion if was involved in the energy source.&nbsp; Considering the fact this material is 100 years old, that's about as close as anyone *could* get to the actual word "fission".</p><p>Is DrRocket ever going to retract his statements about EU theory, or apologize for stuffing EU theory, a Birkeland solar model and my personal beliefs into one bag and beating on it for 9 months?</p><p>At least I had the integrity to come clean for my own mistakes. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[tanstaafl76]

<p>You seem to be the only one in the world claiming Birkeland had a solar model. &nbsp;Why is that?</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>At least I had the integrity to come clean for my own mistakes. <br />Posted by michaelmozina</DIV><br /><br />are you implying that Dr rocket lacks integrity?</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>are you implying that Dr rocket lacks integrity?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by rubicondsrv</DIV></p><p>I will reserve my judgement until I hear his answer.&nbsp; He "demanded" that I reply within 24 hours to his questions, and yet why is he now so silent?&nbsp; I'd like a response in 24 hours too if you don't mind.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p>DrRocket,</p><p>I would now like you to retract your statements about EU theory being 'crap', or I want an explanation as to why you refuse to do this. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You seem to be the only one in the world claiming Birkeland had a solar model. &nbsp;Why is that? <br /> Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV></p><p>He and his companions are now dead. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I will reserve my judgement until I hear his answer.&nbsp; He "demanded" that I reply within 24 hours to his questions, and yet why is he now so silent?&nbsp; I'd like a response in 24 hours too if you don't mind. <br />Posted by michaelmozina</DIV><br /><br />let me answer for you.</p><p>you may not under any circumstances claim that another member lacks integrity.</p><p>if you have a problem take it up with the mods privately.</p><p>you have been given&nbsp;very wide latitude & have continued to be a&nbsp;nussicance you are on very thin&nbsp;ice with regards to your remaINING HERE. </p><p>do not give us another reason to remove you, that list is already long enough.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>let me answer for you.you may not under any circumstances claim that another member lacks integrity.if you have a problem take it up with the mods privately.you have been given&nbsp;very wide latitude & have continued to be a&nbsp;nussicance you are on very thin&nbsp;ice with regards to your remaINING HERE. do not give us another reason to remove you, that list is already long enough.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> Posted by rubicondsrv</DIV></p><p>Fine.&nbsp; I retract my statement about integrity.&nbsp; I would still like an answer to my question. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[tanstaafl76]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>He and his companions are now dead. <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>So what, why would that preclude other scientists from claiming he had a solar model, if he indeed had one? &nbsp;Why are you the only one that seems to claim that?</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So what, why would that preclude other scientists from claiming he had a solar model, if he indeed had one? &nbsp;Why are you the only one that seems to claim that?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV></p><p>Nothing precludes them from doing so.&nbsp; I suppose I did because I happen to enjoy studying solar images, and it is easier IMO to explain such images with his model.&nbsp; I'm not the only one that thinks this, it just 'seems' that way to you at the moment. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>First you told me he never heard of uranium, and now your fixated on fission without reading his matieral. This wilful ignorance thing is simply annoying.&nbsp; <br />Posted by michaelmozina</DIV><br /><br />Michael, you have once again demonstrated that you are a liar or at best unable to understand what you read.&nbsp; You ask me a question and I answer it.&nbsp; If I ask you a question you either reply read a book or duck the question.&nbsp; I'm done.&nbsp; I see why you have been banned far and wide and would welcome your forced exit from this site.&nbsp; I don't object to you expressing your view point but I sure as hell object to your methods.</p><p>I want to write something to you in farewell, but I can't or I might be baned myself.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Michael, you have once again demonstrated that you are a liar or at best unable to understand what you read.&nbsp; <br />Posted by origin</DIV><br /><br />do not call other members liars.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tanstaafl76]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Nothing precludes them from doing so.&nbsp; I suppose I did because I happen to enjoy studying solar images, and it is easier IMO to explain such images with his model.&nbsp; I'm not the only one that thinks this, it just 'seems' that way to you at the moment. <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>Solar images have nothing to do with it. &nbsp;You looking at solar images does not equate with Birkeland having a solar model.</p><p>It is disingenuous to say he had a solar model because you make subjective comparisons of his lab work with pictures of the sun. &nbsp;That's a complete departure from basic logic, man.</p><p>This thread has repeated itself over and over. &nbsp;You make unsubstantiated claims and then get in message board arguments that never go anywhere. &nbsp;You then blame it on other people. &nbsp;This time around it was DrRocket you claimed had some sort of vendetta. &nbsp;But this exact same situation has panned out on one forum after another. &nbsp;Do we really need to list them? &nbsp;Do we need to examine all your circular arguments on Skeptic's Friend or BAUT? &nbsp;I'm sorry but your credibility is fading rapidly. &nbsp;This has been going on for years, yet you keep bringing the same tired arguments and mischaracterizations. &nbsp;And yet you stroll in here posting an "intro" to "EU theory" and try to attribute it to Birkeland and Alfven. &nbsp;Honestly it's just broke.</p><p>People take the time to try to get into the science with you and you always wind up turning it into a message board fight that goes nowhere. &nbsp;There is one common factor in all these threads, it's you. &nbsp;If you were serious about advancing this theory you would spend a lot more time learning and formulating the math behind it and a lot less time getting into circular arguments on message boards.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<br /><br /><p><font color="#003399">michaelmozina</font> has recived a 1 week temp ban for repeated infractions.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[origin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>do not call other members liars.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />Posted by rubicondsrv</DIV><br /><br />I will ensure that I do not do that again.&nbsp; No need to become uncivilized.&nbsp;</p><p>What I meant was that when michael stated that I said this - "First you told me he never heard of uranium", it was an&nbsp;egregiously&nbsp;gross misrepresentation of the facts.</p><p>Edited to add - it kinda set me off that he attributed something to me that I didn't say and then claimed I was ignorant because of it.&nbsp; But hey, it was typical Michael, should not have let it get to me!&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I will ensure that I do not do that again.&nbsp; No need to become uncivilized.&nbsp;What I meant was that when michael stated that I said this - "First you told me he never heard of uranium", it was an&nbsp;egregiously&nbsp;gross misrepresentation of the facts. <br />Posted by origin</DIV><br /><br />thank you.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>michaelmozina has recived a 1 week temp ban for repeated infractions. <br /> Posted by rubicondsrv</DIV></p><p>Just to clarify, will all his posts that disappeared reappear after the ban is over? </p><p>I ask because anyone else reading through the thread for the first time will be terribly confused </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rubicondsrv]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Just to clarify, will all his posts that disappeared reappear after the ban is over? <br />Posted by UFmbutler</DIV><br /><br />currently he is blocked. DH now must enact the ban and then wait several days and unblock him.</p><p>then his posts will reappear. </p><p>then on the 22d he gets let back in.</p><p>pluck does not make this process easy</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Just to clarify, will all his posts that disappeared reappear after the ban is over? I ask because anyone else reading through the thread for the first time will be terribly confused <br />Posted by UFmbutler</DIV></p><p>Hardly more confused than they would be if they read Michael's posts.&nbsp; But point taken.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[SpeedFreek]

Perhaps Wayne (or another mod) could edit the first post in this thread with a message about the ban, so as not to confuse newcomers. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Perhaps Wayne (or another mod) could edit the first post in this thread with a message about the ban, so as not to confuse newcomers. <br />Posted by SpeedFreek</DIV><br /><br />Good idea, since my post started this thread, I will do that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have started this thread to give michael (and the community) an opportunity to consolidate all the discussions spread all over the place.Let's star with...concisely:What is the Electric Universe Theory?Take a few paragraphs....&nbsp;Wayne </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>Edit January 15th.</strong></p><p><strong>The poster who this thread has been directed to (michaelmozina) has been temporarily banned from this site. As a result, all of his posts, in all his threads have temporarily disappeared. They will return when his temporary ban period has ended, unless he decides that it should be considered a permanent ban. We shall see.</strong></p><p><br />Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV><br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>currently he is blocked. DH now must enact the ban and then wait several days and unblock him.then his posts will reappear. then on the 22d he gets let back in.pluck does not make this process easy <br />Posted by rubicondsrv</DIV></p><p>In the meantim I noted that while awaiting resolution of the issue of response to questions I have been following some of the discussion, in particular that part regarding Birkeland's knowledge or lack of it with respect to fission in the sun.</p><p>I have no idea if Birkeland knew of the radiactive decay of uranium.&nbsp; Perhaps he did, as some forms of radiation were known.</p><p>But it is absolutely clear that he knew nothing whatever of the possibility fo obtaining energy from nuclear fission when he wrote the book tha Michael quotes so often.&nbsp; That book&nbsp;was published in 1908&nbsp;before the discovery of the central nucleus by Ernest Rutherford in 1909.&nbsp; He could not possibly have known of nuclear fission prior to knowledge of the nucleus itself.&nbsp;Fission was not discovered until 1938 by Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassman,&nbsp; And the ability to gain significant energy from fission requires knowledge of the chain reaction, which involved the work of Enric Fermi starting in 1939.&nbsp; It would have been difficult for Birkeland to be aware of much of this work -- since he died in 1917.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vogon13]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p>With great reluctance, a minor clarification;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The solar composition would reflect the composition of the nebula that formed our solar system, and since we know of 'primordial' uranium on earth, logically, there is some U in the sun.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Additionally, U in the core of the sun will be exposed to neutron flux from the fusion reactions occurring there.&nbsp; The reaction of the various U isotopes to neutron flux was of considerable interest to the US government (et al) starting in the 1940s and continuing to the present day.&nbsp; IIRC my nuke physics, various U isotopes fission via either fast or slow neutron irradiation.&nbsp; Isotopes in particular, U233, U235, and U238, have found use in various and sundry nuclear devices to date.&nbsp; Also, it would seem that regardless of the energy of the fusion neutrons emitted in various fusion reactions, the presence of low Z isotopes (H, D, T, He3, He4, He5, C, etc.) would moderate even a high energy N flux accordingly.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>So, grudgingly, we conclude fission occurs in the sun, but at a very low order, and certainly at a drastically reduced rate from 4+ billion years ago.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>We can also conclude that this was unknown, and <em><strong>unknowable</strong></em> prior to the crucial and historic realization by Lize Meitner, IIRC, ca 1940, and the hard work and insight of many workers in the field since.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;With great reluctance, a minor clarification;&nbsp;The solar composition would reflect the composition of the nebula that formed our solar system, and since we know of 'primordial' uranium on earth, logically, there is some U in the sun.&nbsp;Additionally, U in the core of the sun will be exposed to neutron flux from the fusion reactions occurring there.&nbsp; The reaction of the various U isotopes to neutron flux was of considerable interest to the US government (et al) starting in the 1940s and continuing to the present day.&nbsp; IIRC my nuke physics, various U isotopes fission via either fast or slow neutron irradiation.&nbsp; Isotopes in particular, U233, U235, and U238, have found use in various and sundry nuclear devices to date.&nbsp; Also, it would seem that regardless of the energy of the fusion neutrons emitted in various fusion reactions, the presence of low Z isotopes (H, D, T, He3, He4, He5, C, etc.) would moderate even a high energy N flux accordingly.&nbsp;So, grudgingly, we conclude fission occurs in the sun, but at a very low order, and certainly at a drastically reduced rate from 4+ billion years ago.&nbsp;We can also conclude that this was unknown, and unknowable prior to the crucial and historic realization by Lize Meitner, IIRC, ca 1940, and the hard work and insight of many workers in the field since.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />Posted by vogon13</DIV></p><p>Correct.&nbsp;</p><p>But the issue has been whether fission is a source of appreciable energy, not whether there are some trace elements that might undergo fission.&nbsp; I am quite sure that if you could sift through the nuclei in the sun you would find a couple of mass 235 or 238, as well as an odd neutron or three that might trigger fission.</p><p>You are also correct that Birkeland could not have known of any fission phenomena.&nbsp; He could not have know of fusion either.&nbsp; That sort of knowledge would have required that he know about the central nucleus, which was not discovered until after publication of his book.&nbsp; Mozina seems to use the&nbsp;word clairvoyance on occasion.&nbsp; Birkeland would indeed have had to be clairvoyant to have theorized of either fission or fusion. <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>