Enigma of Antikythera Mechanism cracked

[telfrow]

<i>A 2,100-year-old clockwork machine whose remains were retrieved from a shipwreck more than a century ago has turned out to be the celestial super-computer of the ancient world.<br /><br />Using 21st-century technology to peer beneath the surface of the encrusted gearwheels, stunned scientists say the so-called Antikythera Mechanism could predict the ballet of the Sun and Moon over decades and calculate a lunar anomaly that would bedevil Isaac Newton himself. <br /><br />Built in Greece around 150-100 BC and possibly linked to the astronomer and mathematician Hipparchos, its complexity was probably unrivalled for at least a thousand years, they say. <br /><br />"It's beautifully designed. Your jaw drops when you work out what they did and what they put into this," said astronomer Mike Edmunds of Cardiff University, Wales, in an interview with AFP. <br /><br />"It implies the Greeks had great technical sophistication." <br /><br />The Antikythera Mechanism is named after its place of discovery, where Greek divers, exploring a Roman shipwreck at a depth of 42 metres (136 feet) in 1901, came across 82 curious bronze fragments. At first, these pieces, thickly encrusted and jammed together after lying more two millennia on the sea floor, lay forgotten. But a closer look showed them to be exquisitely made, hand-cut, toothed gearwheels. <br /><br />It was clear that, within this find, 29 gearwheels fitted together, possibly making some sort of astronomical calendar. But of what, exactly? <br /><br />For a quarter of a century, the textbook on the strange find was a work written by a historian of science and technology, Derek de Solla Price. <br /><br />He hypothesized that the Mechanism in fact had 31 gearwheels, and did something astonishing -- it linked the solar year with a 19-year cycle in the phases of the Moon. This is the so-called Metonic cycle, which takes the Moon 235 lunar months to the same phase on the same date in the year. <br /><br />Edmunds' team, gathering experts from B</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

The reconstruction. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[docm]

Makes you wonder what other kinds of mechanical computers are laying around waiting to be discovered. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[enigma10]

Or what else in our world is a <b>re-invention</b> of something that was lost in the past. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"<font color="#333399">An organism at war with itself is a doomed organism." - Carl Sagan</font></em> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">Or what else in our world is a re-invention of something that was lost in the past. </font><br /><br />One example is cement and concrete. Around 300BC, cement was invented by the Greeks. The Romans then optimized the material, called "pozzolana", mixing this with lime (2:1 ratio), and then mixing this all with 3 parts of sand. The Romans then further optimized the material, with additive chemicals made from animal fats and blood to improve setting properties, durability and strength. The Romans then discovered adding gravel to make concrete.<br /><br />About 150 AD the Pantheon was built with a concrete dome. It was the largest freestanding single room in the world for over a 1200 years. It still stands intact.<br /><br />After 476 AD, the formulation for cement and concrete was lost.<br /><br />It wasn't until 1796 that a crude cement was re-invented by James Parker in England. In the 1880's LeChatlier optimized the ratios of limes, sand and silicates in cement. In the 1920's and 1930's Linus Pauling first correctly described the chemistry of silicates in cement, and intorduced the first use of organicc additives to enhance properties. In 1985 silica fume was re-introduced as a pozzolanic additive. <br /><br />In 1967, the first concrete domed sport structure, the Assembly Hall, was constructed at The University of Illinois. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[vandivx]

"Or what else in our world is a re-invention of something that was lost in the past."<br /><br />Greek joyous and childlike sense of life which was at the same time also heroic was all lost through christianity fault and it will be yet a while before we 'reinvent' it (attain it) again, currently our sense of life is a sort of neurotic and alienated at the core due to weakening hold of christian mysticism, we don't really believe anymore (that includes most of todays explicit christians) but the christian sacrificing morality still holds us strong and therefore down (that includes everybody except for some personal exceptions that can't make a difference in the bigger picture)<br /><br />that calendar mechanism is certainly amazing, imagine if Greeks managed to hold civilization ground continuously till today, where would they (we) be now if there wasn't some 1500 dark years between then and now, I am sure that by now we would have long been flying manned ships to planets, perhaps having colonized some of them as our current advancement might easily have happened circa by 500 AD and most likely even sooner... boggles the mind just thinking of it<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thermionic]

Interesting, I was just reading about some guy who claims that the Giza pyramids have concrete foundations....<br /><br />The Antikythera Mechanism couldn't have just come out of the blue (well I don't think it could, anyway...). What other geared metal mechanisms have been found from ancient Greece?

 

[bonzelite]

this is freekin cool. WOW. thanks for posting that.

 

[thermionic]

Replying to myself... I guess no one is aware of similar or precursor devices.<br /><br />In fact, I googled around and the like. Apparently the 200BC Greeks were building steam engines and astrolabes, along with clever application of the lever. But no other devices with gears and dials seem to have been discovered. And as far as I can tell, this is true for Egypt and Asia as well. It just stuns me that someone could have just sat down one day and built this thing, without being part of a technology culture leading up to it.

 

[vandivx]

"It just stuns me that someone could have just sat down one day and built this thing, without being part of a technology culture leading up to it."<br />----------<br /><br />from the little that I know of classical Greek times, they never had 'industrial' or 'technological' culture, they basically employed slaves that did mostly manual labour with relatively simple implements/tools and that was enough for the (ideal) life as they were striving for it, some such idea as industrial or technological (mass) production like what happened in the West in 17th century onwards (industrial revolution) never seemed to dawn on them as posibility, maybe if they lasted several more centuries than they did it might have and almost certainly would have dawned on them<br /><br />I think mechanism like this one and who knows what else might have been there took theroetical knowledge coupled with jewelry making practice and result was perhaps several pieces got made but its object was never utilitarian, perhaps even some steam engines were also fated to live only as interesting gadgets to amuse congregations or rulers, same as it was with clocks and whatever inventions and old Chinese emperors, they didn't have concept of a 'tool of production', they wouldn't have dreamed what is possible when you make factory with workers as we did several centuries ago and it wasn't that they would have feared loss of absolute power (although that might have been factor in ancient and not so ancient China/Arabian times), the idea of industrial production utilizing technology that in turn would drive 'practial' inventions just didn't occur to them<br /><br />probably Greeks have had other gadgets like this one but those were fated to exist as a sort of intelectual amusements, proves and the likes, that is not belittling Greeks because everything needs its time and place to develop and they just didn't have time enough<br /><br />look at the genius of Leonardo da Vinci, he was lucky to have lived in age when <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Why the Greeks (and the ancient world in general) did not advance more is an interesting question.<br /><br />The slave basis of work in Greec and Rome is one reason commonly advanced. Remember that slaves did not just to the manual labour, many teachers, artisans, doctors,accountants, and many other professions were also dominated by slaves. Because to be a slave was to be a non-person it is possible that a close association with doing the sort of things that slaves did (like the design and building of machines) had a social stigma.<br /><br />However, this cannot be the whole story. Ancient China was not a slave based culture, neither was ancient Egypt There is a big difference between a slave owning and a slave-based society). But it too advanced slowly. One good possibility is that the metaphysical world view was not conducive to such development.<br /><br />The Greco-Romans viewed the world as the plaything of capricious gods and goddesses and as a sacred entity in its own right. This made making sense of the world a difficult and doubtful business, despite the great achievements of Pythagoras, Archimedes, Aristotle, and the rest. In contrast, in post-Roman Europe, the Judaeo-Christian world view, which saw the world as lawful and ordered, rather than capricious, material rather than sacred, and which placed a high value on work, creativity, and artisanship created an environment where science and technnology could flourish.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[kmarinas86]

What about the discovery of coal, gas, or petroleum? Did they have any of those yet, and if so, what did they use it for? A steam engine based on heat from wood is not powerful enough. You need a dense energy source to start a technologically advanced society, and I don't know if they had that yet.<br /><br />http://www.google.com/search?q="equivalent+of+0..10000+slaves"

 

[vandivx]

don't get me wrong, slaves in Greek times weren't like slaves few hundreds years ago or even today in some parts, for Greeks they were sort of like animals, like horses and other animals we use in farming and that worked for us untill technology took over, there was no knowledge in Greek times of universality of all humankind, women were also of distinctly lower statue than men in their times (education wasn't for them, just keeping home and procreation and there was a caste of prostitutes like women and homosexuality was pretty much rule because heterosexuality was still only being discovered as we know it today) and again that was innocent error in Greek times, it is very hard for us to understand their times<br /><br />in old Egypt it was again something else, you could get born and when you died you still had almost only the technology you've been born to, that was the rule for countless generations after generations of Egyptians, the progress that happened was way slow by what we are accustomed today and it was also slave society, you got born into slavery and except for few individuals maybe they all died in it<br /><br />I think what held the elite (ruling class) Egyptians down (in contrast to that of Greek) were their 'beyond this world' supernatural believes in their gods, Greek gods were very much this worldly, pagan in short, they could have been beset by setbacks and even get punished, same as Greeks could, all could receive come-uppance, god or no god, that made Greek culture quite different from that of Egyptian, it would never occur to Greeks that their gods might not like progress, knowledge etc. because Greeks themselves saw that as GOOD and they couldn't conceive of their gods to be against what is good, good for this life, this world they lived in (in contrast to Christian God that forbids earthly pleasures as such including the easing of your life's burden via technology etc all that Christian God frowns upon and won't allow you to heaven if you diso <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>What about the discovery of coal, gas, or petroleum? Did they have any of those yet, and if so, what did they use it for? A steam engine based on heat from wood is not powerful enough. You need a dense energy source to start a technologically advanced society, and I don't know if they had that yet. </i><br /><br />Wood burning is fine for steam engines. In some parts of the world wood fuel was used for railway engines well into the 2nd half of the 2oth century. Wood was extensively used for river steams in many countries as well.<br /><br />Had the ancient world developed a steam technology wood would have been more than adequate. However, deforestation would have become an even bigger problem than it was. Crude petroluem was used as a fuel in the middle east. the Chinese knew about and used coal, petroleum, and natural gas.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The past is a foreign country, for sure. Understanding it is often made more difficult by the fact that most people reply on second or third hand reports which are often quite misleading.<br /><br />Your point about the differences between ancient slavery and the popular conception of 19th century American slavery. Just a couple of points I'll pick up on.<br /><br />Ancient Egypt was a slave owning society, but it was not a slave based society. Much of the work was done by paid labour. <br /><br />We also need to be careful not to exaggerate the achievements of the Greeks. Much of what they did was based on a foundation of Egyptian, Bablyonian, and Pesian knowledge. Furthermore they did not have an idea of progress as a good think, and were generally anti-technology (except in matters military) becauise that is what slaves did. It was not the business of a Greek thinker to do the work of slaves. Also Greek thought was ratiuonalistic, concerned with ideals, not empirical observations of an imperfect world.<br /><br />You have over generalised about the beliefs of ancient China and "the east in general". There are enormous differences between polytheistic Hinduism with its rigid social stratification, the world-denying moral philosophy of Gautama Buddha, the world-affirming asecticism of Lao Tze, and the world affirming pragmatic morality on Confucius. The rsulted in very different societies. However, to discuss eastern metaphysics is, suggest beyond the scope of this thead.<br /><br />Your statements about the impact of Christianity are not supported by the evidence. Nowehere in the Bible does the "Christian God that forbids earthly pleasures as such including the easing of your life's burden via technology". Nor did Christianity hold back the development of science and technology. Science as we know it and its application in technology, as has been shown by Foster, Jaki, Hooykaas, Russell and others, developed in Europe precisely because the Judeao-Christian w <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Obviously, the Antikythera device didn't get created out of a vacuum. In order to build a device of this complexity, a strong understanding of mechanical engineering had to have been in existance, and an <i>industry</i> of making fine finished machine parts. This was not a device made by an illiterate backyard country blacksmith!<br /><br />In 200BC, I refuse to believe that this was the only case ever of precision gears being machined, the only clockwork device ever designed, the only time fine brass alloys had ever prepared, the only time the maths to do complex algebraic calculations were ever conceived, the only time complex blueprints were ever formulated, optimized, written. Clearly there had to have been a school of mechanical engineering somewhere, an industry of making fine alloys, an industry of machining fine parts, more mathematical development that we are awar of, etc, etc.<br /><br />I do think other complex mechanical devices were being built. Cicero, and the later Roman writers Lactantius, Claudian, and Proclus all mention at least two other complex orrirey-like devices had been built, one by Archimedes, another by Posidonius, both of which moved the planets, earth and moon. Neither were the Antikythera Mechanism.<br /><br />The Antikythera Mechanism contains 37 complex gears of different diameters and tooth counts, and with near perfect tooth spacing, a differential gear (not re-invented until the 1700's!), pin-and-slot-gears (re-invented in the 1800's) and off-center gears. It correctly modeled the eliptical orbit of the moon (not re-discovered until the 1600's).<br /><br />from the <i>Nature</i> article:<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />Figure 6 | The ‘Hipparchos’ lunar mechanism mounted on gear e3. The<br />figure is based on a CT slice of part of fragment A, showing (top) shaft e and<br />(bottom) shaft k. The complete ge</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Ancient Egypt was a slave owning society, but it was not a slave based society."<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />----<br />I'd be inclined to aggree, they would enslave captured foreign people although in principle all Egyptians were slaves given that Pharaoh was their king - living god on Earth - which meant that all Egyptians were his slaves. We have inestimable advantage of having distant perspective which at the same time is a handicap since we don't know the details about Egypt, however Egypt never produced abstract algebra (that had to wait for Greeks), they could only do concrete, specific calculations, they didn't generalize. That to me says that they weren't thinkers, they were too concrete bound for that and the question then is why they stayed that way for millenia, only explanation can be they were held down by their beliefs and their rulers' beliefs who's chief concern was to keep and enlarge power and they held absolute power over their subjects and they did excercise it pretty successfully over millenia<br /><br />in contrast Greeks achieved over several hundred years what Egyptians never did over many millenia and I'd say you can never overestimate or 'exaggerate' what they did, discovering base knowledge is always the hardest and most crucial, once that is done progress based on that can accelerate at high rate but without that base no progress happens<br /><br />I don't know what heritage Greeks gained from those antecedent cultures, likely it would be arithmetic from Egyptians which they took to abstract level by inventing the algebra, that alone was feat that classed them as thinkers of first order and even more amazing was that they had made a society that would be open to something like that, that is not prosecute it but welcome it, that's something extremely rare in history of mankind<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Nowehere in the Bible does the "Christian God tha</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>In 200BC, I refuse to believe that this was the only case ever of precision gears being machined, the only clockwork device ever designed, the only time fine brass alloys had ever prepared, the only time the maths to do complex algebraic calculations were ever conceived, the only time complex blueprints were ever formulated, optimized, written. Clearly there had to have been a school of mechanical engineering somewhere, an industry of making fine alloys, an industry of machining fine parts, more mathematical development that we are awar of, etc, etc.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />fully aggree with that but the thing is what that 'industry' served to in the last instance (industry seems to be too strong word here, in the middle ages we know there were workshops and knowledge was passed onto aprentices without much if any of it being noted on paper or blueprints), whether it was to make amusing gadgets for rich people or rulers or for intellectual prusuit in learned centers OR whether those gears were used to grind seeds into flour in some production places... once something like this last starts to happen it leaves archeological evidence behind that is hard to miss simply because it is typically spread in numerous instances<br /><br />Chinese I think made a clock long before it was made in the West but it ended in some emperor's court to serve some mystical astrological ends chiefly whereas in Europe clocks were used for ship navigation and other such progress inducing and spawning ways, different cultures make different uses and progress, like I have mentioned the Arabs, fat lot of good it did them that they have invented numerals and what not and that they possesed the old Greek manuscripts... <br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>progress in science happened despite the Judaeo-Christian world view, not because of it </i><br /><br />Not at all. Science as we know it, with its empirical-hypothetico approach and committment to critical realism appeared only that part of the world most exposed to the Judeo Christian world view after about 1500. Furthermore the testimony of the founders of the modern scientific method is clear that most were either devout or operating within a Judreo-Christian world view. This is not butting the art before the horse, this is the conclusion of historical research. Please note that I am not decrying the tremendous achievements of ancient India, China, Greece, Babylon, Egypt, and the Islamic world, or the nameless geniuses of prehistory.<br /><br /><i>religion brought Western nations to their knees in the first place, then they made a mistake by allowing those learned centers.</i><br /><br />Evidence please.<br /><br />You wrote with respect to the statement of fact that nowhere in the Bible does the Christian God forbid earthly pleasures as such technology with:<br /><br /><i>aggree with that but it is contained there nonetheless even if it is not written so explicitly</i><br /><br />Where does the Bible contain this?<br /><br /><br />Jon<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

ok, so you are telling me that "commitment to critical realism" was fostered in evironment at the base of which is blind belief (which is what faith is by definition) in supernatural deity<br /><br />what you saying here is widespread but patently fallacious view which I know about and that was precisely the reason I wrote what I wrote there to combat it, we don't owe Judeo Christianity anything, on the contrary it owes us for being ball and chain on our legs from its start till today, I can only repeat that<br /><br />'historical research', what is historical research, I won't tell you to support that by quoting sources for that, you mean research by confused atheists or church pillars or corrupt philosophers?<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Science as we know it and its application in technology, as has been shown by Foster, Jaki, Hooykaas, Russell and others, developed in Europe precisely because the Judeao-Christian world view made it possible.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />what of Greeks then, such a pagan culture, they didn't have this nurturing base of the doctrine of blind belief in supernatural deity to help them, how could they be so astonishingly productive in such early age of mankind? and why everything ground to halt for one millenium when Rome fell and Christianity ruled over the whole Western world? and why Christianity fell proportionaly with the rise of science... coincidence? I don't think so.<br /><br /><br />its not that I don't know that church pillars like st Augustine and T. Acquinas started what led to scientific revolution, what they also started unvittingly was the downfall of religion that was in shambles in mater of several hundred years time because of them (it is particularly ironic in case of Augustine who thought he was doing Christianity good by his works but did bear's job for it, all learned inquiries into religion work against it even if they attempt to make it more strong, blind faith can't afford any <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>your calls for evidence are not in order, this is not some scholarly forum in humanities section where sources are to be quoted etc., take it this way, I said what my view are as it pertains (I admit rather circumstancialy) to Greeks inventing such marvelous mechanism and let people read it if they will and aggree or not, I know now you don't aggree and you know I don't aggree with you and I feel I don't feel I have the capacity to persuade you even if I tried with my feeble store of knowledge of history</i><br /><br />While not a forum for formal scholarship, my request for evidence to back up your statements are entirely in order here. If you can't back yoru statements up, that is OK, but a degree less dogmatism on your part would be warrented. I would recommend you read some good histories of science, though. It's fascinating stuff, and you might be surprised<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

LOL I did read some 'good' sources but what's good is in the eye of the beholder you see<br /><br />if you are so hot on evidence why don't you supply evidence for your side? I mean some argument as I did<br /><br />I don't really get what 'evidence' you have in mind, I thought I supplied argument to support my claim in that I tried to explain the processes that went on, I suppose by evidence you expect me to cite some learned source like a book from some author that better have some respected name in the field and who will have claimed in that work what I claim here, like you provided those names there, sorry but I don't care to use authorities like some ammunition the way they were used in medieval times, I want to see your argument here even if it will be only cursory like mine given the context here, a rough description with interpreation of historical happenings and developments<br /><br />I don't see what is dogmatic on my interpretation, I don't claim something out of blue and just stand behind it no matter what, I supplied pretty long explanation to support my claims, like I didn't just claim that your view is putting the horse behind the cart, I went on to explain why I believe that is so, that is not a dogmatic approach at all but the precise opposite<br /><br />anyway I have already seen one or couple posts back that we won't come to agreement on this, your view on the matter is way too widespread, one could say it is like a bromide that people just repeat without actually having any understanding and it just appeals to them if they have some religious background or more likely it just 'seems logical' to them without bothering to examine whether it logically hangs together<br /><br />likely you are not one of those, still our culture while abandoning outward signs of religion and persuasion still keeps firmly to its morality and that tie makes most people interpret history as you do and that also includes most historians and philosophers<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

"What other geared metal mechanisms have been found from ancient Greece? "<br /><br /><br />Not too many, i.e., no others. In the News feature about the article in Nature, it is explained that during that time, Bronze had a value for everyone; almost all was melted down, and the only reason this was preserved was because it was lost in the shipwreck.<br /><br />For example "the Athens Museum has just 10 major Bronze staues from ancient Greece, of which 9 come from shipwrecks"<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[kmarinas86]

Just wait until they find a 1000 year old cell phone <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />.

 

[JonClarke]

vanDixX<br /><br /><i>I did read some 'good' sources but what's good is in the eye of the beholder you see</i><br /><br />Clearly not enough, otherwise you would have realised that your assertion about Christianity holding back science technology was not supported by the evidence.<br /><br /><i>I don't really get what 'evidence' you have in mind</i><br /><br />Chapter and verse to support you assertion that the "Christian God" was anti science and technology.<br /><br /><i>I don't see what is dogmatic on my interpretation</i><br /><br />Given you have said your knowledge of history is feeble, your conviction that the influence of Christianity on science and technology has been negative is dogmatic and not evidence based.<br /><br /><i>likely you are not one of those, still our culture while abandoning outward signs of religion and persuasion still keeps firmly to its morality and that tie makes most people interpret history as you do and that also includes most historians and philosophers</i><br /><br />In other words your mind is made up, let's not let historians and philosphers who have actually researched the issue confuse you with facts?<br /><br />However, we have now moved completely off topic so I will not respond in greater detail here. if you wish to discuss this further by PM, I would be more than happy to do so.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>