Event Horizon Telescope spots weird black-hole jet mystery inside quasar

[Admin]

At the same time the Event Horizon Telescope was gathering data to create the first-ever image of a black hole, it was also observing an even stranger object.

Event Horizon Telescope spots weird black-hole jet mystery inside quasar : Read more

 

[Catastrophe]

"Scientists involved in the research also think that the jet's strange structure could help explain why the material in the jet appears to be moving toward us at a whopping 20 times the speed of light, a complex optical illusion."

Now that is VERY interesting!

Cat

 

[dfjchem721]

Cat, the same effect was seen by the Hubble from the jet emitted by M-87's supermassive black hole. Hubble measured the velocity of this jet at 4-6 times the speed of light. It is called "superluminal motion*, (and) is an illusion caused by the relativistic velocity of the jet."**

Also a remarkable feature of M-87's jet (from Wiki)**:

"The jet is precessing, causing the outflow to form a helical pattern out to 1.6 parsecs (5.2 light-years). Lobes of expelled matter extend out to 80 kiloparsecs (260,000 light-years)."

That means this jet has a "length" ca. 2.5 time the diameter of the Milky Way. I would rate that as a WOW!

One wonders whether the precession of this jet is related to the activities seen at the base of 3C 279's jets. Seeing changes in the jets from day to day seems quite remarkable. Changes on this scale usually occur over much longer periods, so whatever is going on there is exceptionally energetic.

Probably not a good place for a vacation.


* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_motion


** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87#Jet

 

[Catastrophe]

Cat, the same effect was seen by the Hubble from the jet emitted by M-87's supermassive black hole. Hubble measured the velocity of this jet at 4-6 times the speed of light. It is called "superluminal motion*, (and) is an illusion caused by the relativistic velocity of the jet."**

Also a remarkable feature of M-87's jet (from Wiki)**:

"The jet is precessing, causing the outflow to form a helical pattern out to 1.6 parsecs (5.2 light-years). Lobes of expelled matter extend out to 80 kiloparsecs (260,000 light-years)."

That means this jet has a "length" ca. 2.5 time the diameter of the Milky Way. I would rate that as a WOW!

One wonders whether the precession of this jet is related to the activities seen at the base of 3C 279's jets. Seeing changes in the jets from day to day seems quite remarkable. Changes on this scale usually occur over much longer periods, so whatever is going on there is exceptionally energetic.

Probably not a good place for a vacation.


* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_motion


** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87#Jet

" I would rate that as a WOW!"
Probably in 256 point letters!
Cat

 

[Multi-wavelength]

back in 2001 i made a multi-wavelength composite image of the jet of M87.

and discovered what i believe to be the creation of a new Globular Cluster by the jet.

see my cheap website for a rough description of the theory.

it goes a little bit kooky with the concept of a 'plasma helix', but the main point is the probability that we are seeing a Globular cluster being formed and therefore have a new object and process to study.


Private Message me for the link

Link Removed by Moderator

 

[dfjchem721]

How do you propose these clusters to form? Is the jet compressing large amounts of gas in front of it, thereby creating a large ball of hydrogen which could condense into a globular cluster?

The detonation of a bolide (asteroid or comet) over Tunguska, Russia back in the early part of the 1900s reminds me a little of this concept. The bolide's average size was about 400 feet in diameter (+/-), this is all from memory). Incoming speed estimated 20,000+ mph.

The size of the object and its speed as it entered the atmosphere created an enormous pressure differential on the it. The air in front got piled up super fast, and the vacuum created behind it could not be filled fast enough to cover the frontal pressure as it raced through an increasingly dense atmosphere. Because of its size, it withstood the pressure until it overcame the bolide's structural integrity, resulting in a blast at about 10 km or so, with an estimated "down force" of about 3 MT (total high end ca. 15 MT).

Admittedly it is a tad different from the model of gas compression by a galactic jet, but seems to have a similar principle - concentrating a large amount of gas with a major end result. Well, at least two relatively major events.....

 

[Multi-wavelength]

How do you propose these clusters to form? Is the jet compressing large amounts of gas in front of it, thereby creating a large ball of hydrogen which could condense into a globular cluster?

the jet appears to be formed by 2 streams of plasma (emanating from the proximity of the black hole at left and emitting x-ray and radio light respectively*) ... which then merge (plasma fusion?) at the bright spot to form a condensed blob of high energy plasma (emitting light in the x-ray range).

******************************************************************
*in the image Blue is x-ray emitting plasma (Chandra Space Telescope source image) and Red is radio emitting plasma (Very Large Array source image).

 

[Multi-wavelength]

about the Hubble Space Telescope Optical image.

very little of the jet is visible in the optical portion of the light spectrum. particularly along the main body of the jet before it hits the bright spot. what we see appears as indications of turbulence, and which i think is the contact and mixing zones between the 2 plasmas.

it seems that the actual components of the jet (ie: the plasmas) are only visible in the x-ray and radio portions of the light spectrum.
with the x-ray plasma being the more energetic of the two and forming the final product as well.

 

[dfjchem721]

You did not answer my primary question. How does all this generate a large hydrogen cloud one supposes is required for the formation of a globular cluster.

And some thumbs up are appreciated!

 

[Multi-wavelength]

You did not answer my primary question. How does all this generate a large hydrogen cloud one supposes is required for the formation of a globular cluster.

I did?

There are 2 streams of plasma which merge to form a condensed blob.

whether that plasma material is hydrogen or some other type, i don't know.

I don't believe the process takes the form of the "jet compressing large amounts of gas in front of it, thereby creating a large ball of hydrogen".

The plasma itself already constitutes the material of the Globular Cluster. It is emitted by the Galactic Core (from close proximity to the Black Hole) and later combined (at the bright spot) and then trickle fed along a Flux Tube (see pictures in next post) where it finally condenses and forms a large blob.

The difference (seen with the multi-wavelength image) is that the jet is much more robust than previously considered.

A huge amount of material is flowing along the jet.

Here's the VLA Radio Image by itself to show some of the material.

much more material is seen in the radio, in deference to the optical image.

***********************************************************

And some thumbs up are appreciated!

I'm not sure what the "thumbs up" means.

i usually don't hang out at message boards and am not too familiar with all the things that are done. Have i not done something that i should have?

 

[Multi-wavelength]

The actual formation of the Globular Cluster as a spherical Blob occurs in a bizarre way. I've made an attempt at theorizing how it happens but of course i could be wrong.

click on the 2nd image to enlarge.

Because of the concepts involved ie: "Plasma Physics of a Relativistic Jet" i hazard a guess that magneto-hydrodynamics may exhibit effects we would not normally consider at such scales.

Sorry that it looks like a completely different (and crazy seeming) picture to what is usually thought about when it comes to black hole physics.
...and even what's thought about Nuclear Jets.

but if we are seeing the mechanism that creates Globular Clusters and we compare that with the number of Clusters we see in M87, then the robustness of the jet fits the picture of a 'continuous production run'.

 

[Multi-wavelength]

oh...thank you for the thumbs up 'like'. i understand now...sorry about that.

 

[dfjchem721]

I get it now. All the hydrogen you need for the cluster is within the jet, with huge blobs forming at the extreme limit of the jet's force.

Having never studied this, I just assume most of that ejecta stream continued out beyond the galaxy and dispersed. It makes sense to me now. Has this been seen in other galactic jets?

And the thumbs up is hoped to go both ways (hint, hint)!

 

[dfjchem721]

Very nice images of the jet!


From Wiki*:


"Research indicates a correlation between the mass of a central supermassive black holes (SMBH) and the extent of the globular cluster systems of elliptical and lenticular galaxies. The mass of the SMBH in such a galaxy is often close to the combined mass of the galaxy's globular clusters."


Do you know if this is true for M-87? It would take a lot of GCs to meet the above "equivalence" claim for M-87. My intuition tells me this seems questionable. Of course the Wiki link could be wrong, but I have rarely found this to be the case.


It as assumed that most true globular clusters (GCs) are very old based on their stars. Are you suggesting they are always forming when these super-jets are active? Further reading tells me that most GCs formed at the beginning of host galaxy formation, which of course does not rule out this means of their formation. It does, however, suggest a limit on the age of most GCs as being very old.


And do have you a time frame for the globule(s) forming "now" in M-87 to collapse and form a cluster, since it would seem that these are newly formed? We are not looking back that far in time at M-87.


Most of my reading on GCs suggest they are stripped cores of captured galaxies - i.e. those galaxies captured by a larger one which has depleted the acquired galaxy of its gas and dust, leaving it's core to orbit the host galaxy as a GC. These would not need jets to form, I presume, unless you are suggesting that they formed very early on, away from the parent galaxy, forming a new galaxy with this original GC as a seed, only to be returned by gravity to the parent galaxy, then returning to its early stage, as a "mere" GC. Certainly possible.


All this suggests two ways for GCs to appear in galaxies - captured galaxies unrelated to the parent, and galaxies formed by GCs that return to a parent, and their original GC form.. But as it seems this ejecta stream runs out to 250,000 lys, when and where are the clusters formed? Sounds like maybe far from the parent galaxy, but I am being very simplistic here. Just throwing out some "I don't know" notions for you to chew on, and me to learn new things!


* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_cluster#Formation


** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_star_cluster

 

[Multi-wavelength]

I get it now. All the hydrogen you need for the cluster is within the jet, with huge blobs forming at the extreme limit of the jet's force.

Having never studied this, I just assume most of that ejecta stream continued out beyond the galaxy and dispersed. It makes sense to me now. Has this been seen in other galactic jets?

Not to my knowledge. It may require (like my example) a multi-wavelength approach to find and or confirm similar objects.

I think my picture is the first one to clearly show that there is a product being formed by a jet.

 

[Multi-wavelength]

Very nice images of the jet!

From Wiki*:

"Research indicates a correlation between the mass of a central supermassive black holes (SMBH) and the extent of the globular cluster systems of elliptical and lenticular galaxies. The mass of the SMBH in such a galaxy is often close to the combined mass of the galaxy's globular clusters."

Do you know if this is true for M-87? It would take a lot of GCs to meet the above "equivalence" claim for M-87. My intuition tells me this seems questionable. Of course the Wiki link could be wrong, but I have rarely found this to be the case.

It's news to me, i think of the jet as spitting out 'quantas' of mass/energy that are "regular sized" according to the host Galaxy. (The jet being sized according to the Galaxy too).

It as assumed that most true globular clusters (GCs) are very old based on their stars. Are you suggesting they are always forming when these super-jets are active? Further reading tells me that most GCs formed at the beginning of host galaxy formation, which of course does not rule out this means of their formation. It does, however, suggest a limit on the age of most GCs as being very old.

I look at the number of Globular Clusters and conjecture that the process has been going on for a long time. From near the beginning of the universe 'til probably now (M87 example is only 53.5 million light years away).

Its possible that our belief that all GCs are very old is based on an incomplete picture of their origin and development. Once again, as the current example shows, we clearly do not see everything in just the optical range of vision. The newly formed Globular Cluster radiates solely in the x-ray range and so we must then assume, that others that were formed recently, may only be observable in the x-ray or ultra violet ranges.

otherwise we have the situation of..."we haven't seen any young Globular Clusters so we don't believe they exist".

And do have you a time frame for the globule(s) forming "now" in M-87 to collapse and form a cluster, since it would seem that these are newly formed? We are not looking back that far in time at M-87.

I don't know...sorry.
The main component of the new GC is an x-ray plasma which has yet to be studied.

Most of my reading on GCs suggest they are stripped cores of captured galaxies - i.e. those galaxies captured by a larger one which has depleted the acquired galaxy of its gas and dust, leaving it's core to orbit the host galaxy as a GC. These would not need jets to form, I presume, unless you are suggesting that they formed very early on, away from the parent galaxy, forming a new galaxy with this original GC as a seed, only to be returned by gravity to the parent galaxy, then returning to its early stage, as a "mere" GC. Certainly possible.

All this suggests two ways for GCs to appear in galaxies - captured galaxies unrelated to the parent, and galaxies formed by GCs that return to a parent, and their original GC form.. But as it seems this ejecta stream runs out to 250,000 lys, when and where are the clusters formed? Sounds like maybe far from the parent galaxy, but I am being very simplistic here. Just throwing out some "I don't know" notions for you to chew on, and me to learn new things!

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_cluster#Formation

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_star_cluster

I think those theories are gallant attempts to answer the question of GC formation, but instead, if we have the right picture in this thread, then its a more straightforward solution.

 

[Multi-wavelength]

The correlation of the blue x-ray 'Blob' produced by the jet, with 'Globular Clusters', is partway based on the relative sizes involved.

nb: "Ultra Compact Dwarf" refers to the globular clusters in M87
Omega Centauri is the largest GC in our Galaxy.

The Blob is the right size (to evolve into an ultra compact dwarf) if we assume it will shrink a bit over time to form stars under gravitic pressure.

 

[dfjchem721]

It all seems perfectly feasible. Now it sounds like you have a lot of work to do, research-wise, and to convince others, which always seems like a difficult task in this biz.

Good luck!

 

[dfjchem721]

"back in 2001 i made a multi-wavelength composite image of the jet of M87."

How exactly did you come up with this composite image? Looks like something from the Kecks or VLT.

Seems to have pretty high resolution for the distance, considering its inherent distortion(s). And taken ca. 20 years ago. Have you published this?

 

[Multi-wavelength]

"back in 2001 i made a multi-wavelength composite image of the jet of M87."

How exactly did you come up with this composite image? Looks like something from the Kecks or VLT.

Seems to have pretty high resolution for the distance, considering its inherent distortion(s). And taken ca. 20 years ago. Have you published this?

The (RGB) image is composed of:

Red = Radio (Very Large Array)
Green = Optical (Hubble Space Telescope) ie: visible light
Blue = X-Ray (Chandra Space Telescope)

Of the 3, the HST Optical image is the highest resolution.
The VLA Radio image has the next highest resolution, but the Chandra X-Ray image is quite low in resolution.

nb: in the image, red and green combine to make yellow.
And red, green and blue combine to make white.
*****************************************************************************
Before i made the composite image, both the HST Optical image and also the VLA Radio image had been around for a while. The final (missing) piece was the X-Ray image by the Chandra Space Telescope.

I had noticed that there seemed to be a situation where the optical image appeared to be like a jigsaw puzzle piece. It was only showing part of what should have been a fuller picture. In particular it seemed that there should be a blob at the very spot where i later discovered one in the X-Ray image.

When the Chandra image was published it looked like it had the bit i was looking for so i made the composite image and found that there really was a 'Blob' at the spot i'd expected.
This happened about 2 weeks after 911 and i tried from that time on to contact different astronomical groups and organisations but got no reply.
In my emails at that time i was just saying that the jet was spitting out a blob of plasma.

after getting no responses i joined a website called "Universe Today" in 2004 (which in 2005 amalgamated with "Bad Astronomy") and posted the image and asked people what they thought about it. The first response i got at UT was that the image looked like "an eat at Joe's sign gone horribly wrong".

I then tried to present my theory about what i thought was happening in it.
I had named the thread "Galactic Smoking Gun" and said that it looked like a bullet coming out of a gun, and with a trail of smoke connecting them.

I theorized then (like i do now) that there were 2 streams of plasma which were emitted from the vicinity of the black hole and then merging to form the blob.
A little later during the time when Universe today and Bad Astronomy had amalgamated and the site was called 'BAUT' , i put forward the idea that the blob was a newly formed Globular Cluster.

The problem was that no one is in a position to confirm or deny newly discovered and therefore ambiguous phenomena.
Particularly phenomena that are extremely bizarre and impossible seeming.

 

[Multi-wavelength]

Progressive display of the composition.

first image is the HST optical shot with the background stellar gradient removed. (Displayed as a green channel).

2nd image is a composition of the optical and radio images. I'm pretty sure i'd made a version like this which had helped me form the opinion that there was a blob or 'raindrop' shaped plasma form missing. (Green and Red).

3rd image shows the missing blob. (Blue, Green and Red)