FASTER WAY TO GET TO MARS???

[caper]

Hi,

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks. If that is the case maybe we should get them working on the projects. Or how about FREE grads/students or something like that in order to cut the cost down?? Maybe join other countries in get cost down. Does Mr. Obama have any space vision or does he live in flat land?


Caper :idea:

 

[Zipi]

With enough development/build money and time almost everything is possible. I personally can get Mars in one day at year 2303 if I start now and work very hard.

The point of this message is that it is easy to move your jaw up&down and claim something. Other thing is to do what you claim.

 

[scottb50]

With enough development/build money and time almost everything is possible. I personally can get Mars in one day at year 2303 if I start now and work very hard.

The point of this message is that it is easy to move your jaw up&down and claim something. Other thing is to do what you claim.

What the Font!!

 

[access]

Hi,

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks. If that is the case maybe we should get them working on the projects. Or how about FREE grads/students or something like that in order to cut the cost down?? Maybe join other countries in get cost down. Does Mr. Obama have any space vision or does he live in flat land?


Caper :idea:

What the font

 

[StarRider1701]

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks.

Can do what exactly?

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hi,

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks. If that is the case maybe we should get them working on the projects. Or how about FREE grads/students or something like that in order to cut the cost down?? Maybe join other countries in get cost down. Does Mr. Obama have any space vision or does he live in flat land?


Caper :idea:

WHO THE HELL IS DR.DIAZ? WhO IS THE ISRAELI SCIENTIST?

GIMME A "U"

 

[js117]

Hi,

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks. If that is the case maybe we should get them working on the projects. Or how about FREE grads/students or something like that in order to cut the cost down?? Maybe join other countries in get cost down. Does Mr. Obama have any space vision or does he live in flat land?


Caper :idea:

WHO THE HELL IS DR.DIAZ? WhO IS THE ISRAELI SCIENTIST?

GIMME A "U"

I think Dr. Diaz is Franklin Chang-Diaz, a former astronaut and a physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).
He is talking about using VASIMR VX- 200.

This is article on http://www.spacedaily.com/ Scientist eyes 39-day voyage to Mars

Talks about speed of 35 mps.

 

[StarRider1701]

I heard Dr. Diaz can do it in 30-40 days and some Israeli Scientist can do it in two weeks. If that is the case maybe we should get them working on the projects. Or how about FREE grads/students or something like that in order to cut the cost down?? Maybe join other countries in get cost down. Does Mr. Obama have any space vision or does he live in flat land?
Caper

So Diaz has a spaceship all ready to go... ah is that in orbit or down here needing to be sent up?
Is it a two way manned mission? Is it a one way probe? What would you have grad students do for free, just to save a few bucks?

As I asked before, what exactly are we talking about?
For that matter, why would anyone waste money and resources going to Mars now?

 

[neutrino78x]

So Diaz has a spaceship all ready to go... ah is that in orbit or down here needing to be sent up?

Somebody already answered this one, but Diaz is the guy who is developing the VASIMR plasma rocket. To go to Mars in 39 days, it would have to be powered by a space nuclear reactor.

For that matter, why would anyone waste money and resources going to Mars now?

See the Founding Declaration of the Mars Society.

Specifically, I strongly agree with this part:

We must go for the future. Mars is not just a scientific curiosity; it is a world with a surface area equal to all the continents of Earth combined, possessing all the elements that are needed to support not only life, but technological society. It is a New World, filled with history waiting to be made by a new and youthful branch of human civilization that is waiting to be born. We must go to Mars to make that potential a reality. We must go, not for us, but for a people who are yet to be. We must do it for the Martians.

I think we should go to Mars to colonize it, and conquer it, and create new human societies, fully independent nations. US Soil at first, but when they get enough people, they can declare independence.

---Brian

 

[neutrino78x]

Here is a better link to the spacedaily.com article on VASIMR.

--Brian

 

[EarthlingX]

Some older forum posts and old news hidden in the List of Multiple Threads on the Same Topic
from VASIMR based spaceship for heliosphere

What we need is Galactica Lite; a hab, small reactor, VASIMR or MPD power, lander/return vehicle etc. and a gas generating hab launched to the surface long before the people. Get there in 3-4 months and you minimize the risk of microgravity, radiation, solar activity, micrometeoroids etc.

Bigelow had this (bottom) as a lunar ship concept - might have some merit for long duration missions too. That their habs can include water blankets for shielding and have many layers of Kevlar and Vectran for micrometeoroid protection is sauce for the goose.

NASA actually did hypervelocity impact testing on the TransHab tech before it was shut down and the patents sold to Bigelow. The results were so good it was proposed that the aluminum modules of the ISS be retro-fitted with TransHab-style materials for debris protection.

Bigelow then made changes of his own that appear in this patent;

Orbital debris shield
United States Patent 7204460

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7204460.html
and
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0284986.html

Space.com Heliosphere Explorer 1 (SHE-1) (edit 2009.08.30)
_____________________________________________________________________
1. Lander:
Start with Altair (Lunar lander), keep it in one piece (SSTO), apply COTS tricks to lower cost.
2. Habitation and logistics:
1x BA330, 1x ISS Node-1, 2x ISS PMA
3. Power source (20 MW or 20 000 kW for engines)
a.) use RTG
- RTG generator
- cooling radiators
b.) use PV
- PV cells
- batteries
4. VASIMR, fuel
- 20t argon fuel tank for 80t of argon
- 4x VX-5000
5. Supplies, instrumentation, science (edit 2009.08.31)
- 20t supplies for 6 people for 6 months
- 40t instrumentation, science, for first evaluation
____________________________________________________________________
1. = 20t
2. = 40t
3a. - using HPM (1MWe/t, text in reference speculates it could work in space, heat sink?) = 20t
3b. - using SAFE-6400 (0,083MWe/t, heat sink?) = 16 * (16 * SAFE-400) = 16 * 20t = 320t
3c. - using Solaren PV (0,72 MWe/t) = 60t (check above discussion)
- batteries or fuel cells ?
4. - 20t fuel tank + 80t fuel = 100t
- 4x VX-5000 = 4 * (25 * VX-200) = 4 * 10t = 40t
- heat sink = ?
5. 20t + 40t = 60t

(edit 2009.09.30, added equation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_equation
Isp = 5000
Ve = Isp * g = 5000 s * 10 m/s^2 = 50km/s (edit 2009.08.31, changed g0 to g, added * multiplication symbol)
dV = Ve * ln (m1/m2)

Options:
(using rocket equation, Isp = 5000)
3a.) 20t + 40t + 20t + 100t + 40t + 60t = 280t, delta V = 16,8 km/s
3b.) 20t + 40t + 320t + 100t + 40t + 60t = 580t, delta V = 7,4 km/s
3c.) 20t + 40t + 60t + 100t + 40t + 60t = 320t, delta V = 14,4 km/s
(using rocket equation, Isp = 10000) (edit 2009.08.31, calculations for Isp 10000)
3a.) 280t full (m1), 200t empty (m2), delta V = 33647,22 m/s = 33,65 km/s
3b.) 580t full, 500t empty, delta V = 14,84 km/s
3c.) 320t full, 240t empty, delta V = 28,77 km/s
(using rocket equation, Isp = 30000) (edit 2009.09.01)
3a.) delta V = 99 km/s
3b.) delta V = 43 km/s
3c.) delta V = 84,7 km/s

Thrust assuming 60 % efficiency for 4x VX-5000 (edit 2009.09.01, expected efficiency around 80 %)
Isp 1000s = 20000 kW * 0,6 / (1000s * 9,81 m/s^2) = 1220 N (not in operational range of VASIMR)
Isp 5000s = 245 N
Isp 10000s = 122 N
Isp 30000s = 41 N

(edit 2009.08.30, added burn time)
Burn time, assuming 80t argon, using equation (fuel * Isp * g)/thrust, numbers are approximate :
Isp 1000s = 7 days (not in operational range of VASIMR)
Isp 5000s = 189 days
Isp 10000s = 758 days
Isp 30000s = 6646 days (18+ years)
_______________________________________________________________

We are missing info on heat sink (8 MWt for engines), batteries/fuel cells and radiation shielding mass. I am also avoiding cost discussion until we have stable hardware configuration.

I'm still checking the list, please comment.
______________________________________
Here are some links for reference: (edit 2009.09.01, references)

I have some assumptions about size and mass of heat sinks, but no real data yet, using this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation

(2009 U.S. Commercial Space Transportation Developments and Concepts:
Vehicles, Technologies, and Spaceports January 2009)
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... 202009.pdf

Reference Guide to the International Space Station :
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stati ... Guide.html

VASIMR article on Wikipedia with lots of links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASIMR

This document includes information about maximum possible Isp in 30 000s range.
I have received email from Ad Astra Rocket, confirming operational Isp range from 5000s - 30000s
(edit 2009.09.02)
(VASIMR Plasma Rocket Technology)
http://dma.ing.uniroma1.it/users/bruno/Petro.prn.pdf

About nuclear option:

Seven of the nuclear generators would provide 200 MW of power to enable 39 day one way trips to Mars.

(November 28, 2007 - Vasimr engines plus 200 MW of nuclear "batteries" = 39 days to Mars )
http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/11/vasimr ... clear.html

Hyperion Power Module information:
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html

Link on Wikipedia to get specific energy for SAFE-400
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE-400

Some past projections:
(Future NASA Multi-kilowatt Free Piston Stirling Applications)

This paper describes the preliminary work that will be performed toward development of a nuclear-fission-powered nominal 30 kW Stirling power system for use on the lunar surface with a specific power goal of about 140 W/kg for the Stirling power conversion system.

http://sri.auburn.edu/papers/2006/futur ... irling.pdf

Solar alternative:
(Stretched Lens Array SquareRigger (SLASR): A New Space Array for High-Power Missions)
http://www.stretchedlensarray.com/Paper ... WCPEC4.pdf

· Areal Power Density = 300 - 400 W/m2
· Specific Power = 300 W/kg - 500 W/kg
· Stowed Power = 80 - 120 kW/m3
· Scalable Array Power = 4 kW to 100’s of kW’s
· Super-Insulated Small Cell Circuit = High-Voltage (300-
600 V) Operation at Low Mass Penalty
· Super-Shielded Small Cell Circuit = Excellent Radiation
Hardness at Low Mass Penalty
· 85% Cell Area Savings = 66% to 75% Lower Array Cost
per Watt than One-Sun Array
· Modular, Scalable, & Mass-Producible at MW’s per Year
Using Existing Capacities

Orbital Data for the Planets & Dwarf Planets :
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/ ... table.html

Conceptual Mars mission using 3 VASIMR engines (SHE has 100):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj53rVWK5z0[/youtube]

Here are some assumptions about heat sink:
using equations from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation and a lot of aspirins:
A = P / (e * o * T^4)
where
A = area
P = power = 1MWt (t stands for thermal)
e = emissivity = 1 for black body
o = Stefan-Boltzmann constant = 5,6704 * 10^-8 * J * s^-1 * m^-2 * K^-4
T = temperature = 700K
__________________________________________________________
= 73,4 m^2 (approximately)

Here is a certainly much more realistic calculation and plan from Ad Astra:
Human Transportation to Mars

SHE-1 transit time is probably somewhere between.

from What technologies need to be developed?

Jon Goff's take on this question, from a couple of years ago ('06).
http://selenianboondocks.blogspot.com/2 ... aring.html
At a glance:
Reusable Orbital Transportation

• High Longevity Rocket Engines
  Low-Maintenance Reusable TPS

Aerobraking
On-Orbit Propellant Transfer
Long-Term On-Orbit Propellant Storage
On-Orbit Assembly
On-Orbit Construction
Closing the Water Loop (Or at Least Getting Close)
Extraterrestrial Navigation
Low-Maintenance Space Nuclear Power
Space Tugs
In-Situ Resource Utilization
Artificial Gravity
... In the comments might be a few more. E.G. Better space suits.

Some facts about Orbital Mechanics from Rocket and Space Technology
ORBITAL MECHANICS

and some facts about money :
http://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html

 

[rockett]

This seems like old news and I don't know why this is just now turning up but here's the link:
New Rocket Engine Could Reach Mars in 40 Days
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/rocket-engine-mars-trip-100305.html

Neat picture anyway...

 

[js117]

This seems like old news and I don't know why this is just now turning up but here's the link:
New Rocket Engine Could Reach Mars in 40 Days
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/rocket-engine-mars-trip-100305.html

Neat picture anyway...

This is old news here is the link in the forum about the engine

On www.space.com forum
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19731#p380616

www.Nasaspaceflight.com forum

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=18382.0

 

[rockett]

This seems like old news and I don't know why this is just now turning up but here's the link:
New Rocket Engine Could Reach Mars in 40 Days
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/rocket-engine-mars-trip-100305.html

Neat picture anyway...

This is old news here is the link in the forum about the engine

On http://www.space.com forum
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19731#p380616

http://www.Nasaspaceflight.com forum

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=18382.0

Thought it was, just didn't dig far enough into the search. Thanks for the extra links, interesting reading.

They must have either new writers on space.com or not enough news...

 

[EarthlingX]

Or maybe they thought there are still people which don't know about it after more than 10 years and many articles on the topic in various news and publications.

Anyway, here's how Russians are planning to get to Mars by 2022-24, also an old news, just in case :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5DQZOB6JSY[/youtube]

Couple more videos :

Mars mission of Russia part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZlbYQXg0k

Mars mission of Russia part 2 (on Mars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUeQxqM6jT8

 

[js117]

Can't play youtube videos by EarthingX
Embedding disabled by request
Watch on Youtube

Do you have to go To Youtube to watch them ?
should fix or put a link to them.

 

[EarthlingX]

Can't play youtube videos by EarthingX
Embedding disabled by request
Watch on Youtube

Do you have to go To Youtube to watch them ?
should fix or put a link to them.

Just click on the link 'watch on youtube' ..

But ok, it looks complicated, i will change it .. better ?

Anyway, thanks for noting, i did not check how they play in the post, i was watching them on youtube.

 

[js117]

Can't play youtube videos by EarthingX
Embedding disabled by request
Watch on Youtube

Do you have to go To Youtube to watch them ?
should fix or put a link to them.

Just click on the link 'watch on youtube' ..

But ok, it looks complicated, i will change it .. better ?

Better!!
Thanks

 

[EarthlingX]

Better!!
Thanks

No prob

 

[rockett]

Or maybe they thought there are still people which don't know about it after more than 10 years and many articles on the topic in various news and publications.

Anyway, here's how Russians are planning to get to Mars by 2022-24, also an old news, just in case :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5DQZOB6JSY[/youtube]

Couple more videos :

Mars mission of Russia part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZlbYQXg0k

Mars mission of Russia part 2 (on Mars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUeQxqM6jT8

Cool vids! But WOW that thing looks as big as a space station!

 

[EarthlingX]

That's why they are talking 'international cooperation' and already very busy with implementing it.

Here is a forum thread in Physics, dealing with a fusion approach to the question :
Question about fusion reactors

and a video of Orbiter simulation of a Orion nuclear spaceship concept, which is probably currently a political sci-fi, plus some 'devil in the detail' annoyances :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neLA_IuRLI8[/youtube]

NASA video for kids about space propulsion from 2004 i think, very cute :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMnsn9Jwepg[/youtube]