It's time to fire Bolden. He is clearly not up to the task. We need someone who supports both commercial and NASA beyond LEO capability. Personaly, I don't think Bolden is a bad guy. He is a piss poor communicator though at a time when NASA needs to state it's goals in a very clear way. If NASA plans to keep human spaceflight, they need to cleary state that with a plan that has a concrete goal and destinations. Commercial is fine and I celebrate Spacex's successful launch last week. There is no reason we can't promote both. Today the president asked for 50 billion in aid. 50 billion is alot of money. Nasa needs only a small percent of that to keep a beyond LEO program going. They need an administrator who fights for them and that money. Bolden is not that guy.
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mr_mark":1lxd3sj2 said:
The 2011 budget proposal called for developing orbital propellent storage and transfer. This (in my opinion) is a prerequisite for serious space development. So he is moving in the right direction.
I was disappointed when Obama said we've been to the moon. The missions to Mars and asteroids that he hopes to see seem to me flags and footprints sorties missions. Diappointingly short sighted.
However BEO missions are over the horizon in any case. And propellent depots are a step in the right direction. As is trying to encourage alt space companies like Space-X. I believe 4 to 8 years of doing this would put us in a much stronger position to send men beyond LEO.
I admire Bolden.
As a military man he's been given a mission by his superior, President Obama. He has faithfully pursued the success of that mission in spite of strong countervailing forces. He looks for every opportunity to further his superiors goal. He has a good grasp in detail of what the new mission of NASA is to be and believes in it! He's consistent.
and finally, he will apparently be successful!
As a military man he's been given a mission by his superior, President Obama. He has faithfully pursued the success of that mission in spite of strong countervailing forces. He looks for every opportunity to further his superiors goal. He has a good grasp in detail of what the new mission of NASA is to be and believes in it! He's consistent.
and finally, he will apparently be successful!
I think Bolden will be successful, along with his administration in their effort to make sure that nothing leaves earth orbit for a couple of decades. I think they might be successful at delaying any consideration of a heavy lift booster till the current administration leaves office. They might even get lucky that some commercial venture will orbit an astronaunt or two before they leave office. Simply stated, they have a good chance at undermining the leadership we have enjoyed in manned space flight since the late 60's.
This is our darkest hour. I thank Bolden for his service. However, it is my hope he is held in contempt of congress for systematically destroying the current plan of record and launching our manned space flight program into oblivion for decades. While we watch our cosmonaunts hitchhike to orbit, I want to see him answer to the American public for his failure and the failure of his leadership. All they had to do was to fully fund the program of record. No legitimate source has questioned that plan of record's technical viability, including the Augustine report.
Fire Bolden? Yes, but not before he can be held accountable. Its very clear why Mike Griffin had to be silenced. He would not have stood for this humiliating failure.
This is our darkest hour. I thank Bolden for his service. However, it is my hope he is held in contempt of congress for systematically destroying the current plan of record and launching our manned space flight program into oblivion for decades. While we watch our cosmonaunts hitchhike to orbit, I want to see him answer to the American public for his failure and the failure of his leadership. All they had to do was to fully fund the program of record. No legitimate source has questioned that plan of record's technical viability, including the Augustine report.
Fire Bolden? Yes, but not before he can be held accountable. Its very clear why Mike Griffin had to be silenced. He would not have stood for this humiliating failure.
Bolden sadly just didn't hit the floor running. After all the months delay in appointing and confirming him, he walked in to the job and waited for a commission to describe the program of record to him. Pitiful. He should have known everything and had all the information he needed before his first confirmation hearing. That's what you pay executives for and he had ample time to find out. But it was also the Senate's fault for not vetting him the way you would vet any chief executive-ask him "What is your vision for 3 years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now and what do you intend to do to get us there?" Even Goldin, as psycho as he was, picked up the ISS program and ran with it and kept it alive one year to the next, even when he might have had to make a few promises that didn't pan out-at least he kept it running. Bolden just has not shown any leadership qualities.
rcsplinters -
Held in contempt OF Congress? The same Congress that's putting their ricebowl ahead of what's best for the agency and country?
Griffin had to be silenced? What about the humiliating failure Constellation was guaranteed to finish in? And what about Hanley?
Held in contempt OF Congress? The same Congress that's putting their ricebowl ahead of what's best for the agency and country?
Griffin had to be silenced? What about the humiliating failure Constellation was guaranteed to finish in? And what about Hanley?
Horsepucky.
rcsplinters":2lqjspvl said:
Just because they want the launchers to be commercial does not mean they intend to end NASA manned missions. Even if they did, there would still be American missions beyond earth orbit, they just wouldn't be NASA.
If you assemble modules in orbit, you don't need heavy lift.
By the time they leave office, in 2016, Bigelow will be started on his commercial space station, with 10+ private launches a year. NASA Astronauts will have gone to and from the ISS several times. A lot more people will have gone into suborbital flight with Virgin et al. This is an exciting time for humans in space.
Nope. America will still lead in space. Bigelow is an American, and his hotel modules will be built in the USA, and launched from US soil, using US rockets from US companies.
You can't have a program of exploiting and colonizing space that relies primarily on the government. The West was not settled by the US Army, but by ordinary Americans moving there.
It is ironic that people who think the President is too far to the left are defending the GOVERNMENT PROGRAM that is NASA manned missions. So much for small government, eh?
--Brian
Pretty much all Science's troubles, including in NASA's case, stem from politics infiltrating itself into technical debate.
It's past time for apologetic takes on Griffin and others to be due to merely being misled by politicians.
It's past time for apologetic takes on Griffin and others to be due to merely being misled by politicians.
I think some of us are, at best, destined to agree to disagree.
The Augustine report, certainly hostile to the Constellation program, never indicated a technical problem with that program which wouldn't yield to sound engineering. Further, it never questioned the need for heavy lift, even projecting that 7 - 9 Ares V class boosters might be necessary to mount a single Mars mission. The key problem with Ares I was lack of mission based on an ISS due to burn in 2015 but which is now likely to be extented to 2020 and perhaps even to 2028, 13 years beyond the assumptions made in the report.
This report was hardly independent nor was it objective. However, several of the claims here against Ares and Constellation are simply not factually supported by Augustine or any other engineering based writeup that I have ever been able to dig up and I read avidly. Hence my claim, and I stand by it, that Constellation was viable and worthwhile. The day could have been saved (and ironically may still be) by the administration and/or congress. If the administration's plan had any credibility we wouldn't see things like No Orion, oops, lifeboat Orion when there are already enough life boats docked. The decision was a hatchet job which realigned the funds so that they could be used in a more politically expedient way. Further, it eliminated a potential history success for the prior administration which has been systematically demonized by the current administration as a smoke screen poor decisions such as the one regarding Constellation.
Hopefully we get this debacle corrected in 2013 or so with the outster of Bolden by Obama's replacement. My worry is that the next program will have to deal with absolutely crushing national debt and be even more difficult to fund (as the 2015 vaporware booster would have been). The nation will have missed out on a large amount of the research and technology development that Constellation would have provided. Anyway you cut it, the program is in shambles and there is no plan to fix it. Bolden was the man at the helm. Its becoming more likely that he has defied congress and broken the law resulting in significant harm to the nation. Yes he should be fired. Yes, he may be held in contempt. The regret I have is that he was probably just following orders and his leadership really should suffer this disgrace.
That's my opinion. Now every engineer with a dinner napkin is going to have the "optimal" approach. Meanwhile the nation is wasting time and money.
The Augustine report, certainly hostile to the Constellation program, never indicated a technical problem with that program which wouldn't yield to sound engineering. Further, it never questioned the need for heavy lift, even projecting that 7 - 9 Ares V class boosters might be necessary to mount a single Mars mission. The key problem with Ares I was lack of mission based on an ISS due to burn in 2015 but which is now likely to be extented to 2020 and perhaps even to 2028, 13 years beyond the assumptions made in the report.
This report was hardly independent nor was it objective. However, several of the claims here against Ares and Constellation are simply not factually supported by Augustine or any other engineering based writeup that I have ever been able to dig up and I read avidly. Hence my claim, and I stand by it, that Constellation was viable and worthwhile. The day could have been saved (and ironically may still be) by the administration and/or congress. If the administration's plan had any credibility we wouldn't see things like No Orion, oops, lifeboat Orion when there are already enough life boats docked. The decision was a hatchet job which realigned the funds so that they could be used in a more politically expedient way. Further, it eliminated a potential history success for the prior administration which has been systematically demonized by the current administration as a smoke screen poor decisions such as the one regarding Constellation.
Hopefully we get this debacle corrected in 2013 or so with the outster of Bolden by Obama's replacement. My worry is that the next program will have to deal with absolutely crushing national debt and be even more difficult to fund (as the 2015 vaporware booster would have been). The nation will have missed out on a large amount of the research and technology development that Constellation would have provided. Anyway you cut it, the program is in shambles and there is no plan to fix it. Bolden was the man at the helm. Its becoming more likely that he has defied congress and broken the law resulting in significant harm to the nation. Yes he should be fired. Yes, he may be held in contempt. The regret I have is that he was probably just following orders and his leadership really should suffer this disgrace.
That's my opinion. Now every engineer with a dinner napkin is going to have the "optimal" approach. Meanwhile the nation is wasting time and money.
I'm a center-right conservative and have little love for Obama's policies in general, but in this case I'm 80% in agreement with him and Bolton - difference being the size of the NASA budget (too small). I'd emphasize even more the commercial side, even LockMart's fuel depot and lander proposals of a couple years ago. I totally agree with canceling Ares I/V and Orion because they were typical "old NASA" government style programs: full of bloated, goal-chasing top-down engineering.
docm":33fycs2z said:
The thing that got me was that we had no need of ares 1 really. It was just a precurser to Ares V.
I think we will need a heavy lift but....
Bottom line is constellation was constantly over budget, underfunded, and plagued by technical problems. Like docm said while i might not like the guy or all his policies this one was good. Now if only he would state a real goal system...
rcsplinters":9f1qzzco said:
Well I question the need to send humans to the Moon right now. Obama's idea is sound: stimulate private enterprise to develop space as the free market dictates. This will result in more competition, lower prices, and more access to space for common people. The West was not won by the US Army, it was won by common American settlers.
Obama's replacement will be in 2016; Presidents get a maximum of two terms, and this President will be re-elected.
(1) the Constitution states that the President has Executive power. Hence, the President can do what he wants with the budget given to him by Congress. So, the law hasn't been broken here.
(2) Not only will not harm the nation, but it will be a great benefit to us. People going up into space every month or so will greatly improve the economy, and a robust private space program will enhance our national security.
lmao yes, the Democratic majority Congress is going to hold a member of the Democratic Presidential Administration in contempt. Plus, Bolden has not refused to respond to a subpoena from Congress, so they can't hold him in contempt, lmao. If anything they could impeach him, but that seems rather silly.
wikipedia":9f1qzzco said:
So, since this hold in contempt thing is obviously Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck nonsense, we should probably get back on topic and off politics.
--Brian
Neut, the topic is "fire Bolden" after all. You can be held in contempt by Congress for many reasons. The administration has already demonstrated that it will cut loose underlings for "mis-speaking" their opinions. There are liberals which are set against Bolden at this moment. Fire him? Hold him in contempt? Pretty much on topic on this thread.
I'm surprised you think this issue is so near dead in Congress and that Bolden (and perhaps Obama) seems to be above the law. It is possible similar arrogance will lead the administration into the sort of blunder which might result in precisely that action.
I still think that it is entirely plausible that some form of Constellation will emerge from this and it frankly already has in the form of Orion. The evidence that the administration is TOTALLY misguided is illustrated no more clearly than the pathetic mission profile for the Orion. Blunder after blunder such as this is what throws the status of Bolden and the future of NASA into chaos. My goal is to try and understand how NASA will emerge from this abuse at the hands of a sitting president. The means to understand that outcome, unfortunately, is now entirely a political matter. The political majority is by no means united on this topic and I expect the future will be decided by a bipartisan collection of individuals in both the house and Senate. I strongly believe a poll of those individuals would NOT yield a majority in support of the Bolden/Obama folly. I also believe that folks in those bodies are NOT happy with Bolden's blatant disregard for the 2010 budget and related manadates as regards Constellation.
We whine the party line all day long. That does not help us try to understand what the future may hold for Bolden and Constellation. Clearly the OP has a definite opinion on what Bolden's future may hold.
I'm surprised you think this issue is so near dead in Congress and that Bolden (and perhaps Obama) seems to be above the law. It is possible similar arrogance will lead the administration into the sort of blunder which might result in precisely that action.
I still think that it is entirely plausible that some form of Constellation will emerge from this and it frankly already has in the form of Orion. The evidence that the administration is TOTALLY misguided is illustrated no more clearly than the pathetic mission profile for the Orion. Blunder after blunder such as this is what throws the status of Bolden and the future of NASA into chaos. My goal is to try and understand how NASA will emerge from this abuse at the hands of a sitting president. The means to understand that outcome, unfortunately, is now entirely a political matter. The political majority is by no means united on this topic and I expect the future will be decided by a bipartisan collection of individuals in both the house and Senate. I strongly believe a poll of those individuals would NOT yield a majority in support of the Bolden/Obama folly. I also believe that folks in those bodies are NOT happy with Bolden's blatant disregard for the 2010 budget and related manadates as regards Constellation.
We whine the party line all day long. That does not help us try to understand what the future may hold for Bolden and Constellation. Clearly the OP has a definite opinion on what Bolden's future may hold.
The continued pursuit of folly is arrogance.
Constellation is that arrogance.
If this program ever yields a launch vehicle it will be obsolete by the commercial vehicles already years ahead of it in service. NASA budget dollars and my own tax dollars are to dear to invest in rockets that will be overpriced and therefore under-utilized in the long term.
What Constellation had to offer was the heavy lift and Obama-Bolden actually pushes that plan ahead by two years to 2016 instead of 2018.
Bolden as the mouthpiece is expendable, the benefits he's bringing to American's space program are not.
If you want ARES-I ask Congress to fund it, it'll be a nice museum piece after it's initial launch.
Constellation is that arrogance.
If this program ever yields a launch vehicle it will be obsolete by the commercial vehicles already years ahead of it in service. NASA budget dollars and my own tax dollars are to dear to invest in rockets that will be overpriced and therefore under-utilized in the long term.
What Constellation had to offer was the heavy lift and Obama-Bolden actually pushes that plan ahead by two years to 2016 instead of 2018.
Bolden as the mouthpiece is expendable, the benefits he's bringing to American's space program are not.
If you want ARES-I ask Congress to fund it, it'll be a nice museum piece after it's initial launch.
I have to agree with you 'splinters. If you look at history (since we have brought politics up). Democratic administrations (since Kennedy and Johnson) have favored social agendas over science and space exploration. Consequently, large budget science programs get the ax for political currency to fuel those agendas.
I remember being at the Super Conducting Super Collider when Clinton took office. The result of that hatchet job was to export the scientists and technology to Europe, which we now see in the LHC.
As for firing Bolden, he is simply "following orders" and has said as much in the Congressional testimony I have seen videos of. There have been times when he has appeared to be extremely uncomfortable with his "mission assignment". I think his heart is really in the right place, but it conflicts with his "orders". A better approach would seem to be taking his "boss" to task, rather than taking a "good soldier" to task for attempting to follow orders.
Anybody ever watch "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruse?
I remember being at the Super Conducting Super Collider when Clinton took office. The result of that hatchet job was to export the scientists and technology to Europe, which we now see in the LHC.
As for firing Bolden, he is simply "following orders" and has said as much in the Congressional testimony I have seen videos of. There have been times when he has appeared to be extremely uncomfortable with his "mission assignment". I think his heart is really in the right place, but it conflicts with his "orders". A better approach would seem to be taking his "boss" to task, rather than taking a "good soldier" to task for attempting to follow orders.
Anybody ever watch "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruse?
Kind of hard to substantiate any leftist-political-agenda argument in light of the $6B increase in funding. Obama's push toward private commercial space launches also smacks of big-business-Republicanism. Conservatives in 2016 will be screaming to keep those commercial development dollars coming at the risk of jobs, jobs, jobs! Just as we're hearing today.
Bolden did flinch regarding the future of the astronaut cadre. The need for a professional corp and the role they will have to play hasn't been spelled out clearly or perhaps not thought out clearly. Every commercial launch will probably end up including a NASA-trained pilot. Once the Air Force starts putting it's own manned missions in orbit we'll probably see a more formalized and militant "Space Corp".
Bolden did flinch regarding the future of the astronaut cadre. The need for a professional corp and the role they will have to play hasn't been spelled out clearly or perhaps not thought out clearly. Every commercial launch will probably end up including a NASA-trained pilot. Once the Air Force starts putting it's own manned missions in orbit we'll probably see a more formalized and militant "Space Corp".
Look at the history of large scale science projects for different administrations since Kennedy and Johnson. You should also look at the political motivations involved. Never make the mistake of outright trusting a politician of any stripe. In general, they are more self serving than most people.sftommy":i39uudsl said:
"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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