Fundamental Forces in the early stages of the big bang?

[space_coops]

If we know what value the 4 forces are today, at what stage during the early stages of the big bang did these forces come about? How did they get their value and what effect did the incredible temperature at this time have in "creating" what they are?<br /><br />I guess knowing when the universe cooled enough to allow particles to form will have something to do about it.<br /><br />Discuss />

 

[docm]

Theory is that about 10 e-43 seconds after the big bang gravity separates from the strong-electro-weak force (Grand Unified force). Microscopic black holes form & disintegrate.<br /><br />Next at 10 e-35 seconds after the big bang Grand Unification ends (the strong force separates from the electro-weak force). Quarks, leptons and antiparticles created. Inflation occurs and the universe expands by ~10 e25. Gravitons form and decouple.<br /><br />At about 10 e-12 leptons separate into electrons & neutrinos and their antiparticles and gravity starts to control expansion.<br /><br />At about 10 e-6 quarks & anti quarks form protons, neutrons & antiparticles. Protons/antiprotons and neutrons/antineutrons annihilate each other leaving slight excess of protons & neutrons plus lots of photons.<br /><br />At 1 second neutrinos and antineutrinos decouple.<br /><br />At about 15 seconds electrons and positrons annihilate each other. Slight excess of electrons left (= number of protons so net charge of Universe is 0) plus more photons.<br /><br />At about 30 seconds protons and neutrons fuse into helium nuclei (nucleosynthesis). Spare neutrons used up.<br /><br />At about 370,000 years matter decouples from radiation and electrons orbit nuclei to form atoms. The universe becomes transparent to photons. This decoupling is now viewed as the 2.7 K Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.<br /><br />At about 1 billion years galaxies form and supernovae begin to form the heavier elements. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

I told you I would comment so I will.<br /><br />Docm your talking about when these fundamental forces became signifigant, NOT when they were created. It would make sense that these forces have been around for all time even before the big bang.<br /><br /><br />Anyway I thought it was unknown what happened in the first few seconds of te Big Bang due to the conflict between Quantum mechanis and General Relativity? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[docm]

It's implied by the timing provided that before 10 e-43 all forces <b><i>are</i></b> unified. If you want unity that extends before the singularity, if there was one, I suggest you read up on M-theory. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

I don't think there's any overwhelming reason to assume the forces did or did not exist before the BB.<br /><br />It's the land of total conjecture at this point. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[why06]

Exactly. So what does docm mean by a unified force. How would we even know te forces were unified and by what physics would we know that. I don't see how the state of matter and energy at that time dictates the physics of our universe. Physics was created to study things governed by physics not to show the physics of the funadamental forces themselves. Especially when the root cause of many forces is unknown<br /><br />e.g. Why is the phenomenom of gravity seen around mass?<br /><br />Don't know? Than how can you say the nature of the forces 50(or something) billion years earlier at the beggining of time? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[space_coops]

How can something exist before the the big bang? If there is no space there is no time. No?<br /><br />Anyway docm, thanks for the info. I guess my question is about a time (no matter how breif) prior to the unification of the forces. If you could freeze frame the Universe at the begining when it had some form of spacetime and the entire energymass of the universe was contained in this space, what made these forces? And do we know if the amount of energymass (if it has a value) was directly responsible for the value of the forces?

 

[R1]

this is actually a reply to all posts above in general, I'm confused because<br />I thought you neded a trio of quarks, 2 one way and one the other, to form<br />a particle with mass and therefore gravity, so I'm getting confused when<br />gravity separated from other forces long before quarks existed, let alone combined to formed what I <br />thought was a massive particle.<br /><br />So quarks then have mass and therefore gravity? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

Yes thankyou for the information. Though I would like to ask you where you got that information; unless ofcourse you got it all out of the top of your head. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[docm]

<font color="yellow">I'm confused because I thought you needed a trio of quarks, 2 one way and one the other</font><br /><br />Quark pairs are mesons.<br /><br />Quark triplets are baryons (protons, neutrons, Xi, Omega etc.)<br /><br />Both are held together by gluons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[space_coops]

How do you "quote" on this forum?

 

[docm]

[ + quote + ] text [/ + quote + ] (you really don't type the +'s)<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[lukman]

Any of those forces are unified in a black hole? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[R1]

so what did it take to start gravity,<br /><br />an energy string behaving like a massive particle? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

the only problem I see with Mtheory is why random forces don't just appear out of nowhere. Especially If forces are purely based on the movement of the strings. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[why06]

I don't see why they would be. What would unified forces even do, but it is possible.<br /><br />Take a nuetron star for instance....<br /><br />In a nuetron star the gravity is so immense that it is composed completly of huetron. If so how can nuetron stars have the immense magnetic field that they have when nuetrons have now charge. Unified forces?<br /><br />What are the implications of this? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Just FYI, it's neutron <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[why06]

...opps. <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /><br /><br />...I should be permanently banned from the scientific community. My bad. (FYI: That means my fault) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[lukman]

how can this happenned? is it miss type or nuetron virus that alter all neutron words into nuetron? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

I mean ya what he said....<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

FYI, it's oops, not opps <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />No banning required, I'm a lousy typist too <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

whazzat? <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[why06]

I em sarry. I em nat wery geed wid wurds??? <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[lukman]

MeteorWayne surely pay attention to a very detail -) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hey, I don't even bother to pick on loose instead of lose anymore <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />But nuetron was just so jarring I had to comment. It made my eyes cross and water <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>