Getting more SRB thrust from Ares

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;[RANT-ON]You're a professional, as is Dr. Rocket - I'm not.&nbsp; This is a forum to ask questions, teach, and learn.&nbsp; I make no apologies for asking questions - even if they're stupid questions.&nbsp; Be-littling me, the Discovery Channel, or History Channel just tells me that "you professionals" use these forums to boost your ego's.&nbsp; Here again, I could care less.&nbsp; My only complaint is that "you professionals" have a teaching problem.&nbsp; Spewing out volumes of technical information with out explaining it in laymans terms (or defining your terms) does nothing to get your point across.&nbsp; It just makes me ask more questions, and upsets you.[RANT-OFF]&nbsp;As far as closed mindedness is concerned, I never accused you of that.&nbsp; Maybe you're thinking of someone else. <br />Posted by kyle_baron</DIV></p><p>

He's right. </p><p>&nbsp;</p><div class="Discussion_UserSignature"><hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" /></div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature">Will Pittenger

</div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature">If you want to learn from your questions. might I suggest that on occassion you listen to the answers ?&nbsp; The answers that have been provided to you are in fact pretty simple, and if you find them complex then you simply would not be prepared for the full Monty.&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't think that any terms have been used without definition other than those that were used in the original questions and ordinary terms from high school physics.</div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature">Perhaps one term that you are having trouble with is Max Q.&nbsp; Q is dynamic pressure.&nbsp; It is 1/2 times the density of air times velocity squared.&nbsp; Max means maximun.&nbsp; You will always have a Max Q sometime in a flight.&nbsp; In fact you have one when you drive to the grocery store.&nbsp; The only issue is to make sure that nothing bad happens because of it.</div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature"><br /><br />&nbsp;</div> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kyle_baron]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Now that is the ketttle calling the pot black.&nbsp;&nbsp; It in't the questions, it is comments like these: " Maybe that's part of the problem, when you're conditioned to see things one way."</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>What I meant here was, "you professionals" give one answer with no options, and according to you (or the physics) that's final.&nbsp; BALONEY, there are always options and changes that can be made.&nbsp; And I reserve the right to disagree with anyone.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>" Yet, the professionals "have to be told" what to design. "</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Don't professional engineers have bosses?&nbsp; Or do they do, as they please?&nbsp; Do you believe I would tell a rocket scientist how to design a rocket?&nbsp; LOL!&nbsp; The best I could hope for, is to show him a different angle, to a problem.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>" I think it's one of my better ideas, that flies in the face of "business as usual" or "the status quo".</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Well, what can I say, are you jealous?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp; Glad I won't be using the elevators in your building.</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>FYI, Elevators are maintained quarterly, by licensed maintenance men, who only do elevators.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;&nbsp;As for the Discovery and&nbsp; History Channel, they aren't reliable sources.&nbsp; They use a lot of hype. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br />Posted by Cygnus_2112</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>And they broadcast a lot of good information, along with the hype.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

 

[kyle_baron]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Perhaps one term that you are having trouble with is Max Q.&nbsp; Q is dynamic pressure.&nbsp; It is 1/2 times the density of air times velocity squared.&nbsp; Max means maximun.&nbsp; You will always have a Max Q sometime in a flight.&nbsp; In fact you have one when you drive to the grocery store.&nbsp; The only issue is to make sure that nothing bad happens because of it.&nbsp; <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Yes, thankyou.&nbsp; You've given a nice mathematical equation.&nbsp; So, before SRB seperation, the dynamic pressure rises because the shuttle is still in the lower (denser) atmosphere.&nbsp; However, after SRB seperation the velocity increases dramatically, whilst the air density decreases (because of the higher altitude).&nbsp; Is this velocity increase, because of the air density, mass&nbsp;loss of the SRB's, or both?<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

 

[Cygnus_2112]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> And they broadcast a lot of good information, along with the hype. <br /> Posted by kyle_baron</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The problem is you and others don't know the difference </p>

 

[Cygnus_2112]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Yes, thankyou.&nbsp; You've given a nice mathematical equation.&nbsp; So, before SRB seperation, the dynamic pressure rises because the shuttle is still in the lower (denser) atmosphere.&nbsp; However, after SRB seperation the velocity increases dramatically, whilst the air density decreases (because of the higher altitude).&nbsp; Is this velocity increase, because of the air density, mass&nbsp;loss of the SRB's, or both? <br /> Posted by kyle_baron</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;1.&nbsp; The shuttle is out of the bulk of the atmosphere even before SRB sep</p><p>2.&nbsp; It is not the "mass loss" of the SRB's, up to separation the SRB's are providing more thrust than their weight which is a net acceleration. &nbsp;</p><p>3.&nbsp; Actually, the shuttle velocity doesn't&nbsp; " increases dramatically" right after SRB sep, the acceleration is lower.&nbsp; The acceleration is higher (velocity increases dramatically) towards the end as the ET emptys.&nbsp; </p>

 

[Cygnus_2112]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> 1What I meant here was, "you professionals" give one answer with no options, and according to you (or the physics) that's final.&nbsp; BALONEY, there are always options and changes that can be made.&nbsp; And I reserve the right to disagree with anyone.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FYI, Elevators are maintained quarterly, by licensed maintenance men, who only do elevators.&nbsp; Posted by kyle_baron</DIV></p>BALONEY<p>Elevators are not maintained quarterly and when they are, it is done by unlicenced maintenance men.&nbsp; There are always options and changes.&nbsp; You say no there isn't because of laws?&nbsp; Well, the laws of physics are just as rigid.&nbsp; You don't known enough to know that there aren't any options.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[kyle_baron]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>BALONEYElevators are not maintained quarterly and when they are, it is done by unlicenced maintenance men.&nbsp; There are always options and changes.&nbsp; You say no there isn't because of laws?&nbsp; Well, the laws of physics are just as rigid.&nbsp; You don't known enough to know that there aren't any options.&nbsp; &nbsp; <br />Posted by Cygnus_2112</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I don't want to get into a pissing contest here.&nbsp; Ok, you won this round, let's move on.&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Yes, thankyou.&nbsp; You've given a nice mathematical equation.&nbsp; So, before SRB seperation, the dynamic pressure rises because the shuttle is still in the lower (denser) atmosphere.&nbsp; However, after SRB seperation the velocity increases dramatically, whilst the air density decreases (because of the higher altitude).&nbsp; Is this velocity increase, because of the air density, mass&nbsp;loss of the SRB's, or both? <br />Posted by kyle_baron</DIV></p><p>Velocity increases any time thrust exceeds weight plus drag, which should be any time that the rockets are operating.&nbsp; The thrust from the SRB is due to the expulsion of hot gas created by burning propellant at high velocity.&nbsp; So insofar as the gas is generated by consuming propellant it is due to mass loss of the SRBs.&nbsp; Reduction in air density reduces dynamic pressure, and with it drag.&nbsp; That reduction occurs all along the rising trajectory, and is not particularly pronounced at SRB separation.</p><p>Dynamic pressure rises before SRB separation because velocity is increasing faster than atmospheric density is decreasing.&nbsp; If dynamic pressure were not rising there would be something drastically amiss.&nbsp; </p><p>Believe it or not there is a reason that physics is expressed with equations.&nbsp; It sheds light on the subject for people who can understand and use them.&nbsp; It also helps to frame sensible questions and answers.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>