Hexagon on Saturn!

[ianke]

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA09187<br /><br />Hi, Calliarcale<br /><br />Check out the above . It shows the motion you are discussing. It does appear to be rotating, but at a slower rate than the higher clouds. You are right in saying that you cant say it rotates with the planet. How do you define a day on a ball of gas?<br /><br /><br />Ianke <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Also the 'day' of Saturn cannot be defined due to the out gassing from Enceladus masking & altering the radio emmissions from Saturn!!<br /><br />Yes I agree, How do you define a day on a ball of gas? A very good & intelligent question!!! All the giant planets along with the Sun have differential rotation, faster at the equators & slower at the poles!!! This has also been detected in some stars too, like Epsilon Eridani, Tau Ceti, Sirius A, etc.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Does anyone have a link to the Voyager images? I'd like to see a comparison of the hex in the Voyager days with the current image if possible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

See this montage from Voyager 2. August 1980.<br /><br />Hope this helps.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[enigma10]

arg. someone approve that image! =)<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"<font color="#333399">An organism at war with itself is a doomed organism." - Carl Sagan</font></em> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Slight turbulences with distort the hexagon. The sides of the coffee mug induce turbulences. Actually it works best if a smooth large cylinder is used, and the sides and bottom of the cylinder are insulated.<br /><br />Wikipedia has good discussions of Benard cells (and also the Marangoni effect). <br /><br />+++++++<br />Also I found this journalarticle about hexagonal shapes observed in some galaxies, which shares some similarities to Marangoni cells (hexagons formed via shock front interstellar propagation). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

On Saturn, the surface tension effects are essentially zero, and there is no clear phase boundry anyway.<br /><br />It is purely a Benard cell thermal convection, as you surmised.<br /><br />By the way, here is a picture of a hexagonal cloud formation from thermal Benard cell convection, taken over the Atlantic. Sometimes this happens when there is zero wind shear. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

A diagram of Benard cell mechanism: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

And another diagram:<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">There are several tilings that can cover a surface and hexagon is one of them. It is not clear why Bernard cell thermal convection chooses hexagons over any other covering polygons. <br /></font><br /><br />True, and perceptive!<br /><br />Hexagonal cells are seen over the broadest range of variables (e.g. 'Marangoni number') in terms of various measures of circulation, flow velocity, column height, etc. However, in certain (unusual) conditions of boundry constraints, turbulence, viscosities other polygonal shapes can also be observed, such as squares, octagon+squares, etc....or the circulation can "roll over" by 90 degrees and make more of a layer-cake. The mathematical treatment gets quite complex. There are some links on google concerning this, but the full articles always seems to require a subscription fee.<br /><br />The hurricane refernce was interesting!<br /><br />I don't know how long it took to form Saturn's hexagon, or how it came to be established. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The hexagon rotates at the radio rotation period <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Now that's very interesting! IIRC, the radio period was until very recently believed to reflect the "true" rotation period of Saturn, but that's been found not to be the case. So that's intriguing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Borman, that observation of polygons in hurricane eyewalls is some interesting stuff! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[generic_man]

If the aurorae and Hexagon have a correlation, they can be hypothesized to be plasma phenomena.

 

[3488]

How's this for a wierd aspect of the Sixth Planet??<br /><br />Hexagon Video.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[pyoko]

I don't know if this has been posted before:<br /><br />Do try this at home, kids:<br /><br />http://www.wordsmith.org/~anu/java/spirograph.html<br /><br />Set the values to 12 , -10 , 50 , and you get a shape that looks very much like the shape on Saturn.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color:#ff9900" class="Apple-style-span">-pyoko</span> <span style="color:#333333" class="Apple-style-span">the</span> <span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span">duck </span></p><p><span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="color:#808080;font-style:italic" class="Apple-style-span">It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.</span></span></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

After all of these months, it seems as if my hypothesis that this is a huge Benard-Marangoni cell is taking life as a prevailing hypothesis for the hexagon. There have been quite a lot of re-posts on the internet in various science websites and fora (about 6000), plus some discussion in a few recent journal papers. I am still watching this closely. I still think I am correct. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Mmh, do you think that shape could appear also in a rotating nebula? That would be ultra interesting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

It is now late Winter in the northern hemisphere of Saturn, so perhaps Cassini may be able<br />to start seeing it in normal visible light. <br /><br />I am sure that this will be part of Cassini's extended mission, post June this year.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Fran, not by any mechanism that I can imagine. The Benard-Marangoni circulation on Saturn is driven by thermal fluid flow within the atmosphere. Galactic gravity waves take a spiral shape, not hexagon.<br /><br />Have you seen distinct hexagon shapes in any galaxy pictures? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[3488]

Saturn's lower atmosphere will behave more like a liquid, than say the thinly veiled gas<br />in nebulae. <br /><br />Fran did raise a good point though, if we see something like that in a planetary atmosphere, <br />then we may see it elsewhere.<br /><br />But Saturn's atmosphere (Saturn's Troposphere & Stratosphere) is far denser <br />than any nebulae.<br /><br />The Benard-Marangoni circulation can even be recreated in a VERY hot mug (not cup) <br />of coffee, with cream (not milk) & it does replicate what we see in Saturn's atmosphere very well.<br /><br />Thinly veiled gas will not reproduce that effect.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

I agree, the cells do look nested. And it looks like there may be a fine structure of small semi-stable vortices attached to the walls of some of the nested hexagons.<br /><br />I don't understand why. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[shadow735]

All I have to say is this is awesome. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Update here.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[jsmoody]

Hey! They found Hell. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> No amount of belief makes something a fact" - James Randi </div>

 

[shadow735]

sorry but I found hell a long time ago I know because I work there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>