How did supermassive black holes get so big so fast just after the Big Bang?

[Admin]

Finding supermassive black holes with masses billions of times greater than the sun under a billion years after the Big Bang has scientists confused how these cosmic titans got so big so quickly.

How did supermassive black holes get so big so fast just after the Big Bang? : Read more

 

[rod]

"Despite these issues, Regan is confident that by investigating black holes in the early universe and by potentially discovering heavy seeds, scientists will soon be able to build a supermassive black hole growth picture. In particular, he pointed to the launch of the Laser Interferometer Space Based Antenna (LISA), a space-based gravitational wave detector that will help scientists better constrain the demographics of black holes in the early universe. "I think we made a huge amount of progress in the last 10 years. Huge. And we will continue to make massive progress over the next decade as well.," Regan said." Extrapolating out from these demographics will give us a very, very good handle on the number of mergers happening in the distant universe involving black holes in exactly the mass range we need, with masses around 100,000 times that of the sun. "I think it is very probable we will have solved this problem in the next 5 to 10 years."

My observation. I am not so sure about this, *I think we made a huge amount of progress* concerning the origin of various SMBH documented now. Space.com reports recently also show Population III stars as possible seeds, some 1,000 to 10,000 solar masses or more. Other reports on inflation, in the post-inflation epoch can create a plethora of PBH, primordial black holes that could fill the universe today, and if they grew over postulated billions of years after the postulated BB event, could be very big today

 

[rod]

Supermassive black holes grow surprisingly quickly, study suggests

A new way to estimate the masses of supermassive black holes suggests that these cosmic titans may grow faster than previously believed. Supermassive black holes grow surprisingly quickly, study suggests : Read more

forums.space.com

 

[starnut]

If the idea that all of everything was squeezed into a something the size of a grapefruit that exploded, I will not be surprised to find out that after the big bang some of the pieces of the grapefruit stayed in their original form to some extent. Assuming this is even possible.

 

[Harmonograms]

The section describing Black Hole Diet is illogical and doesn't conform to BH observations; particularly this quote; "But, if the electromagnetic radiation emitted from around a black hole in the form of jets is intense enough, it physically pushes material away." The relativistic jets are pointed north and south and at right angles to the material entering the BH by way of the accretion disc, the jets are NOT interfering with the material entering by way of the accretion disc vector. What is actually shutting off the BH's feed is the loss of gravity the relativistic jets represent, because they also carry off vast amounts of mass (one estimate says 40% of incoming mass may be ejected) from the vicinity of the BH and spew it into intergalactic space. This loss of mass and gravity from the space around the BH lessens it's overall gravitational attraction which stabilizes the orbit's of debris which would otherwise auger into the BH. The jets shut off the BH's feed by lowering the overall mass and gravity around the BH, not by directly pushing the mass away (which is not observed). This is why BHs tend to become less active as they age.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

While the jets are not "pushing" on matter in the accretion disk. aren't they electromagnetically "pulling" matter from the accretion disk into the jets?

 

[Harmonograms]

While the jets are not "pushing" on matter in the accretion disk. aren't they electromagnetically "pulling" matter from the accretion disk into the jets?

I'm sure the intense electromagnetic currents have an important effect on the distribution of mass within the accretion disc and the relativistic jets. It has been observed that the jets revolve in the same direction as the accretion disc and I believe that's an important clue. I wish we could see how this all works and what's going on within the event horizon.

 

[billslugg]

The black hole accretion disc is charged particles, half of them positive and half negative. Heavy positive protons are less mobile than light negative electrons so there is a net electrical current running in a circle around the equator. This produces a bipolar magnetic field. Gravity and angular momentum draw gasses into closer, faster orbits generating shear forces and heat. Gas wants to escape but can't because, except at the poles, the charged particles would have to cross magnetic field lines to escape. very hard to do. Much easier to escape at the poles.

 

[Atlan0001]

Electroweak force (EWF) magnetic monopole point singularities upscaled into the macro-verse as black holes are vastly materially harder than either neutron stars or magnetars because -- as I for one visualize them now -- they are sheer 100% force fields, and nothing but magnetic monopole singularity, through and through and the strongest magnetic force, as well as superconductor, there is. Everything will draw to it and around it, but nothing can stick to its mirror finish face upon the universe or be slowed in passage around it to somewhere else via the superconducting tunneling funnel of its horizon.

Nothing escapes it because, contrarily, nothing enters it passing that field of pure monopolar force . . . nothing can enter it, or resist being levitatingly (sic) funneled to some infinite elsewhere (lost in space and time) by way of that superconducting pseudo-surface hologram of a horizon.

I previously put the infinity inside the outside bounds of a black hole but realized that simply the access was all that there had to be (was all that was needed). That in a black hole -- an EWF magnetic monopole point singularity -- I was probably not dealing in anything like an emptiness but dealing in a field of purest hardest magnetic force (one that would make a neutron star or a magnetar mush) in the universe. A "supergravity singularity" couldn't exist because it couldn't possibly end up hard! cold! and elementally quantum in any way in any case!

 

[Atlan0001]

Oops! I think I may be wrong again when it comes to the string gravity / anti-gravity element. It is roped into the picture by the strength of the magnetic monopole point singularity, producing a 'Gordian Knot' of enhanced gravity / antigravity to a superstring status I said could not exist. The combine of force and Gordian Knotted structure doesn't change a thing except to extend the power and reach of magnetic monopole point singularity and the black hole horizon superconducting funnel it is.

 

[Atlan0001]

"How did supermassive black holes get so big so fast just after the Big Bang?"

You are looking through a super-version microscope, that's why.

 

[Helio]

I'm surprised that there was no mention of a scenario where SMBHs form as a result of Pop III star formation in GMCs. Whereby these early stars would produce many SN causing the great compression within clouds. This would allow for many more massive BHs to form in such proximity to allow their mergers forming SMBHs. This idea may be observable with the improvements to LIGO, though it may be seen as noise.

The universe was about 10 times smaller, thus 10 times more dense at that time. Give all that shock waves from SN and internal supersonic flows might reveal a very active period 200 to 400 million years after Recombination.

The latest S&T mag. has an article on this suggesting two favored scenarios. BHs becoming big ones, and massive cloud collapses to birth SMBHs.

 

[Harmonograms]

The black hole accretion disc is charged particles, half of them positive and half negative. Heavy positive protons are less mobile than light negative electrons so there is a net electrical current running in a circle around the equator. This produces a bipolar magnetic field. Gravity and angular momentum draw gasses into closer, faster orbits generating shear forces and heat. Gas wants to escape but can't because, except at the poles, the charged particles would have to cross magnetic field lines to escape. very hard to do. Much easier to escape at the poles.

The black hole accretion disc is charged particles, half of them positive and half negative. Heavy positive protons are less mobile than light negative electrons so there is a net electrical current running in a circle around the equator. This produces a bipolar magnetic field. Gravity and angular momentum draw gasses into closer, faster orbits generating shear forces and heat. Gas wants to escape but can't because, except at the poles, the charged particles would have to cross magnetic field lines to escape. very hard to do. Much easier to escape at the poles.

What do you think of the idea that a BH's jets get a gravity boost from low gravity at the center of a BH? I know it sounds sketchy, but it works something like this: Gravity, which is a manifestation of continuously unfolding time and space curving around static mass, which we experience as acceleration, is strongest close to the center of the BH; but curiously enough, due to the (near) infinite curvature of the spacetime circling at the very center of the BH’s accretion disc, there must be a north/south line perpendicular to the plane of rotation, where the infinite curvature of spacetime all cancels out creating a low gravity “keyhole” venturi for the excess spacetime to escape. An analogy for the low gravity at the center of a BH would be the calm air experienced within the eye of a hurricane. The counter-intuitive calm may be an apt analogy for a hypothesized line of low gravity north and south of the center of an accretion disc spinning at relativistic velocities at the center of a BH. Additionally, since the dimensionless point of collapsed mass at the center of a BH is so small, and gravity dissipates quickly by the inverse square law, a modest distance from the center of a BH, perpendicular to the plane of rotation may provide a naturally occurring low gravity escape avenue. - Just trying different ideas...

 

[robert_j_richardson]

Scientist might want to check on their clock's accuracy

 

[rmuir98]

Finding supermassive black holes with masses billions of times greater than the sun under a billion years after the Big Bang has scientists confused how these cosmic titans got so big so quickly.

How did supermassive black holes get so big so fast just after the Big Bang? : Read more

My theory of the Big Bang is that it was a Black hole so big it collapsed on itself like a star going super nova that it crushed the heavy elements into what we Call dark matter which explains why it has no gravity and is the smallest known thing in the universe that it make an atom look like a main star in comparison and also it threw out the main star making elements in such huge quantities and areas that still had high amounts of gravity fields it made galaxies and giant helium based stars that they were caught in the gravity of the big bang it made black holes in such a short time. it might not make sense but it sure explains a lot.

 

[George²]

My theory of the Big Bang is that it was a Black hole so big it collapsed on itself like a star going super nova that it crushed the heavy elements into what we Call dark matter which explains why it has no gravity and is the smallest known thing in the universe that it make an atom look like a main star in comparison and also it threw out the main star making elements in such huge quantities and areas that still had high amounts of gravity fields it made galaxies and giant helium based stars that they were caught in the gravity of the big bang it made black holes in such a short time. it might not make sense but it sure explains a lot.

I tried to follow your thought and my brain almost leaked out.