How realistic is the God-Particle??

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marcel_leonard

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How realistic is the God-Particle as seen on the Tom Hanks movie "Angles/Demons"? I use to work for Wayne State University Physics Department as an RA reporting to High Energy Physicist work periodically at both the Cern/Fermi labs so my question in this physics forum is there any truth to the ""God-Particle""???

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fg16j5hbvY[/youtube]
 
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Gravity_Ray

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Well thats what the LHC is supposed to find out. So stay tuned I guess.
 
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marcel_leonard

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Gravity_Ray":x8whyvz5 said:
Well thats what the LHC is supposed to find out. So stay tuned I guess.
What exactly is LHC???
 
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marcel_leonard

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tam8ttec":3oougj1k said:
Large Hadron Collider
Why not just say Cern, or Fermi labs??? :?

On a different note how many here feel as I do that there should be strict disconnect between one's belief system or faith, and one's adherence to the scientific method???

By nicknaming the Higgs Boson the "God Particle" is the scientific community instigating more conflict and unnecessary conflict w/ the Religious Right who already are on a holy crusade to fight the Creation (ID Theory) vs. Evolution (Big Bang) war???

[Then God said "Let there be light" lighting the fuse that ignited the Big Bang]
 
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ramparts

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marcel_leonard":2xtnviod said:
tam8ttec":2xtnviod said:
Large Hadron Collider
Why not just say Cern, or Fermi labs??? :?
Because they're different things - especially Fermilab. The LHC is at CERN, but there is more at CERN than just the LHC. Think about it like this - CERN is the lab, LHC is the experiment. CERN is a place, LHC is a particle collider. CERN has other experiments, so it wouldn't be very specific to say "CERN is going to try to find the Higgs."

Fermilab is something entirely different - like LHC, it's a lab (the associated experiment which might find the Higgs is called Tevatron), but it certainly isn't CERN; in fact, they're on entirely different continents :)
 
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marcel_leonard

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ramparts":2ukes023 said:
marcel_leonard":2ukes023 said:
tam8ttec":2ukes023 said:
Large Hadron Collider
Why not just say Cern, or Fermi labs??? :?
Because they're different things - especially Fermilab. The LHC is at CERN, but there is more at CERN than just the LHC. Think about it like this - CERN is the lab, LHC is the experiment. CERN has other experiments, so it wouldn't make sense to say "CERN is going to try to find the Higgs."

Fermilab is something entirely different - like LHC, it's a lab (the associated experiment which might find the Higgs is called Tevatron), but it certainly isn't CERN; in fact, they're on entirely different continents :)
I don't actually think that you know what your talking about; both labs are looking for the Higgs Boson. The only real difference between the labs beside one being located in Geneva, and the other being located in Illinois. Is that the Cern lab is recently built, and has a larger diameter Collider than the Fermi lab...

The only reason the we are looking for the so called "God Particle" = Higgs Boson is that no ones exactly knows where matter comes from; so the idea is to collide protons at near [c] and see if we can't recreate the pre-super force conditions (i.e. when G/EM/SN/WN forces were all one force)...

p.s. (No one actually know what exactly G/EM/SN/WN forces are either)
 
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ramparts

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marcel_leonard":3ebkw8dj said:
ramparts":3ebkw8dj said:
Because they're different things - especially Fermilab. The LHC is at CERN, but there is more at CERN than just the LHC. Think about it like this - CERN is the lab, LHC is the experiment. CERN has other experiments, so it wouldn't make sense to say "CERN is going to try to find the Higgs."

Fermilab is something entirely different - like LHC, it's a lab (the associated experiment which might find the Higgs is called Tevatron), but it certainly isn't CERN; in fact, they're on entirely different continents :)
I don't actually think that you know what your talking about; both labs are looking for the Higgs Boson. The only real difference between the labs beside one being located in Geneva, and the other being located in Illinois. Is that the Cern lab is recently built, and has a larger diameter Collider than the Fermi lab...
I don't see anything in my post which disagrees with what you just said. You asked why someone would refer to the LHC instead of CERN or Fermilab. Well, LHC is more specific than CERN (since there are other experiments at CERN which have nothing to do with the Higgs), so that's that, and the LHC isn't located at Fermilab, so it would be silly to say Fermilab instead of LHC. That said, yes, there is a possibility Tevatron will find the Higgs first; the LHC can do it faster, but Tevatron has been running longer, and with the delays in the LHC startup schedule, Tevatron might well have enough of a head start to make up for its lower energies.

Anyway, if you'd like to keep teaching me physics, I appreciate it. I have no idea what I'm talking about, after all. Or how to spell "you're" :)
 
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ramparts

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Also, strictly speaking CERN is older than Fermilab - the former opened in 1954, the latter in 1967 ;) Of course, the order is different for Higgs-searching experiments; Fermilab's experiment, Tevatron, is older than CERN's experiment, the LHC. That's what I was getting at, the difference between the experiment/collider, and the lab where it's located.
 
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marcel_leonard

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ramparts":3h9td4hv said:
Also, strictly speaking CERN is older than Fermilab - the former opened in 1954, the latter in 1967 ;) Of course, the order is different for Higgs-searching experiments; Fermilab's experiment, Tevatron, is older than CERN's experiment, the LHC. That's what I was getting at, the difference between the experiment/collider, and the lab where it's located.
Thanks for clearing that up.........getting back to something that is a related subject, but in a different direction. I don't know who coined the phrase "God Particle" (probably the Media in an attempt to start some religious controversy)....Anyway if they ever find the Higgs Boson at either lab it will probably raise more question than it will answer.

As I stated before I'm a firm believer of the separation of Chruch/State, Science/Religion, and the Left/Right Brain. Having said that it would be dismissive of me not to mention that through out history some of the greatest men of science were also very spiritual people. After all the creative part of the human mind can not function without its analytical part on the opposite hemisphere.

In your own opinion do you fell that faith sometimes helps to reinforce one's specific field of scientific study? I know in my personal history that as a youth reading the first few chapters Moses's Book of Genesis left me confused which ultimately left me fascinated w/ the study of pure sciences in order to find answers to biblical questions. After all the same God that inspired the Holy Bible, also coauthored Physics, Math, and all the empirical sciences :cool:
 
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MeteorWayne

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For someone who alleges so much knowledge about physics, you seem to have a wealth of lack of facts.

Not understanding the difference between the LHC and CERN, or CERN and Fermilab??????

In fact the term "God Particle" was created by a physicist at Fermilab!!

Leon Max Lederman (born July 15, 1922) is an American experimental physicist and Nobel Prize in Physics laureate for his work with neutrinos. He is Director Emeritus of Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory (Fermilab) in Batavia, Illinois. He founded the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, in Aurora, Illinois in 1986, and has served in the capacity of Resident Scholar since 1998.
 
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origin

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After all the same God that inspired the Holy Bible, also coauthored Physics, Math, and all the empirical sciences
You would have a very tough time proving that statement. It could easily be that there are actually different gods that are responsible for each of those items.....
 
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centsworth_II

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ramparts":e02pjhq0 said:
Also, strictly speaking CERN is older than Fermilab.... Fermilab's experiment, Tevatron, is older than CERN's experiment, the LHC....
Old CERN accelerators are still being used for the LHC. According to slide 5 of this presentation:
"All the CERN Accelerators for Neutrino Beams are more than 28 years old with PS approaching 50 years. These are the same accelerators that are going to be used as LHC injectors."
 
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marcel_leonard

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MeteorWayne":1rxrithw said:
For someone who alleges so much knowledge about physics, you seem to have a wealth of lack of facts.

Not understanding the difference between the LHC and CERN, or CERN and Fermilab??????

In fact the term "God Particle" was created by a physicist at Fermilab!!

Leon Max Lederman (born July 15, 1922) is an American experimental physicist and Nobel Prize in Physics laureate for his work with neutrinos. He is Director Emeritus of Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory (Fermilab) in Batavia, Illinois. He founded the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, in Aurora, Illinois in 1986, and has served in the capacity of Resident Scholar since 1998.
First of all you probably did not know that Enrico Fermi was the first one ever to build a working reactor.....simply because you are an obtuse message-board moderator, and by yourself righteous behavior I doubt that you've had any formal science or engineering background to speak of.

Just because you get to move people's forum topics around in Space.com doesn't make you more informed, educated, scientific, powerful , or even knowledgeable for that fact it simple makes you petty!!! :mrgreen:
 
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MeteorWayne

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Please do not be so naive to not understand the difference between Meteor Wayne the User and Meteor Wayne, the Moderator. They have different functions.

Meteor Wayne the User can speak his opinions just like anyone else here as long as he follows the rules.

Meteor Wayne the Moderator has specific function; to enforce the rules, and to aid in the organization of the site, both in consultation with the rest of the moderator team.


I don't confuse the functions.

MW and MMW
 
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marcel_leonard

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I don't know how many of you are scientist or engineers working in your respective fields, but if you're like you received training in the scientific model (i.e. observation, documentation, experimentation, and finally developing a hypotenuse.) Most researchers use this basic model before coming up w/ their theory, or they use the mathematical model which can often provide a mathematical proof. It has often proven difficult to test in real time use a math theorem. Case/point: You can show on a number line one can actually prove the possibility of time travel either backwards or forwards on the number line, but dealing w/ our real world physical constraints this theorem is difficult to prove to say the least.

My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
 
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centsworth_II

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marcel_leonard":11e0cdea said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Sure. I can even tell you the month it was first written down: July 1964.

"It was Thursday, July 16, 1964, and he was sitting in the departmental library at the University of Edinburgh, reading an article with which he profoundly disagreed....

....An idea 'began to evolve,' and by the following Monday morning, as he walked to his university office, he had perfected in his own mind the theory of how particles acquire mass....

...In the days that followed Professor Higgs wrote a short mathematical proof of his theory, describing what would become known as the Higgs boson particle...."


By the way, I'm not sure your formula: (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson is right. It's probably more like
quarks + electrons (and family)+ neutrinos (and family) + (EM/G/SN/WN) + Higgs Boson = The Standard Model
 
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marcel_leonard

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centsworth_II":21m6qv9q said:
marcel_leonard":21m6qv9q said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Sure. I can even tell you the month it was first written down: July 1964.

"It was Thursday, July 16, 1964, and he was sitting in the departmental library at the University of Edinburgh, reading an article with which he profoundly disagreed....

....An idea 'began to evolve,' and by the following Monday morning, as he walked to his university office, he had perfected in his own mind the theory of how particles acquire mass....

...In the days that followed Professor Higgs wrote a short mathematical proof of his theory, describing what would become known as the Higgs boson particle...."


By the way, I'm not sure your formula: (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson is right. It's probably more like
quarks + electrons (and family)+ neutrinos (and family) + (EM/G/SN/WN) + Higgs Boson = The Standard Model

Thanks I feel new brain cells growing as we speak.......... :lol:
 
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darkmatter4brains

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marcel_leonard":3rsijasy said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Since you inserted the world "simple" in there , the answer to that question is a resounding NO , NO, NO!

Oh, and it's more like EM/SN/WN => Disgustingly complex mathematical model that doesn't work w/o free parameters and says nothing should have mass => invent Higg's Boson and insert into theory to make it work

And gravity is not even part of this yet.

Sorry, that's my usual rant about the standard model, but the truth is that many in the physics field themselves feel very uneasy about the standard model.

The Higg's Boson, if they even find it, will either save the model, or cast it much further into doubt if they do not.

Either way, it will be the biggest thing in physics for some time. I can't wait till they really start cranking out the physics at LHC!
 
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marcel_leonard

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darkmatter4brains":1qv7qc10 said:
marcel_leonard":1qv7qc10 said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Since you inserted the world "simple" in there , the answer to that question is a resounding NO , NO, NO!

Oh, and it's more like EM/SN/WN => Disgustingly complex mathematical model that doesn't work w/o free parameters and says nothing should have mass => invent Higg's Boson and insert into theory to make it work

And gravity is not even part of this yet.

Sorry, that's my usual rant about the standard model, but the truth is that many in the physics field themselves feel very uneasy about the standard model.

The Higg's Boson, if they even find it, will either save the model, or cast it much further into doubt if they do not.

Either way, it will be the biggest thing in physics for some time. I can't wait till they really start cranking out the physics at LHC!

I think the simple fact of the matter is that in the world of academic physics we have two different models for the how the universe works at the microscopic level, and a totally different model for how things work at the cosmic level......I believe this is at the heart of the problem!!!
 
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craigmac

Guest
marcel_leonard":2dkfn7ds said:
darkmatter4brains":2dkfn7ds said:
marcel_leonard":2dkfn7ds said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Since you inserted the world "simple" in there , the answer to that question is a resounding NO , NO, NO!

Oh, and it's more like EM/SN/WN => Disgustingly complex mathematical model that doesn't work w/o free parameters and says nothing should have mass => invent Higg's Boson and insert into theory to make it work

And gravity is not even part of this yet.

Sorry, that's my usual rant about the standard model, but the truth is that many in the physics field themselves feel very uneasy about the standard model.

The Higg's Boson, if they even find it, will either save the model, or cast it much further into doubt if they do not.

Either way, it will be the biggest thing in physics for some time. I can't wait till they really start cranking out the physics at LHC!

I think the simple fact of the matter is that in the world of academic physics we have two different models for the how the universe works at the microscopic level, and a totally different model for how things work at the cosmic level......I believe this is at the heart of the problem!!!

I believe Prof. Higgs came to the same conclusion when was arguing the finer points of his theory to Stephen Hawkins.
 
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fatjoe

Guest
darkmatter4brains":27jqtwyh said:
marcel_leonard":27jqtwyh said:
My question is there a simple math model to show how all the four know forces (EM/G/SN/WN) = Higgs Boson (God Particle)???
Since you inserted the world "simple" in there , the answer to that question is a resounding NO , NO, NO!

Oh, and it's more like EM/SN/WN => Disgustingly complex mathematical model that doesn't work w/o free parameters and says nothing should have mass => invent Higg's Boson and insert into theory to make it work

And gravity is not even part of this yet.

Sorry, that's my usual rant about the standard model, but the truth is that many in the physics field themselves feel very uneasy about the standard model.

The Higg's Boson, if they even find it, will either save the model, or cast it much further into doubt if they do not.

Either way, it will be the biggest thing in physics for some time. I can't wait till they really start cranking out the physics at LHC!
My feeling on the matter concerning gravity is that it doesn't seem to apply at the microscopic levels; which leads to believe that what call gravity is really just another form of electromagnetism...
 
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neuvik

Guest
fatjoe":3ci8brah said:
My feeling on the matter concerning gravity is that it doesn't seem to apply at the microscopic levels; which leads to believe that what call gravity is really just another form of electromagnetism...
Gravity does apply at microscopic levels....its just in microscopic levels....and dwarfed by nuclear forces which play a greater role at that level.

Further there is no correlation between gravity and electromagnetism.
 
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centsworth_II

Guest
fatjoe":38osn3re said:
My feeling on the matter concerning gravity is that it doesn't seem to apply at the microscopic levels; which leads to believe that what call gravity is really just another form of electromagnetism...
Electromagnetism applies very much at microscopic levels, so why would gravity which does not apply very much at microscopic levels be a "form of electromagnetism"?
 
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