If you could put an aircraft into Jupiter's atmosphere...

[willpittenger]

... where would you go? No one aircraft is going to be able to visit even relatively small areas of Jupiter. So pick carefully. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Thank you willpittenger, you've given me the opportunity to promote one of my favorite mission scenario's.<br /> The Exploration of Jovian Atmosphere Using Nuclear Ramjet Flyer <br /><br />This mission could fly in the Jovian Atmosphere for years.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[saurc]

Well...<br /><br />I don't know if the atmosphere of Jupiter varies much from place to place. Sure there are clouds and cloudbelts, but if you visit one of them it would be too far away to visit the others.<br /><br />Some places could be..<br />1. Great Red Spot: I think this would be a most inhospitable place, with turbulent winds blowing around at great speed. On the other hand it would probably yield the best data<br />2. In between cloud belts where you can see the lower atmosphere.<br /><br />I think that ramjet idea is really good.

 

[thalion]

My first choice is simple: crossing the boundary between a light zone and dark belt, as I feel this will give us the most data on the latitudinal differences in Jupiter's circulation. After that I'd want to study the deep atmosphere as safely as possible, and probably piggyback a short-lived balloon to study the upper-level winds. <br /><br />As attractive as they are, I'd want to stay away from the rougher weather on Jupiter, unless it's a "we're out of juice, so we might as well go down in glory" moment.

 

[nuaetius]

Wouldn't the relitive gravity of Jupiter make a mission of this style hard too pull off? Maybe the better way of doing this research would be to fly a satilite out to orbit and drop probes into the atmostophre and get your data from these as they fall in. I mean seroiusly we have only had a few ramjet testfires and you guys are talking about sending one to Jupiter and have it fly around as a UAV (non-seasoned technology). Ramjet UAVs flying a round in Jupiter atmostphere is not far from flying out there at Warp 2 and teleporting down.

 

[jschaef5]

"we have only had a few ramjet testfires and you guys are talking about sending one to Jupiter and have it fly around as a UAV (non-seasoned technology)."<br /><br />Incorrect. What do you think the SR-71 used to get to mach 3+? You may be thinking of scramjets. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nuaetius]

Incorrect. What do you think the SR-71 used to get to mach 3+? You may be thinking of scramjets. <br /><br />I stand corrected; I did get my scram and ram jets mixed up. I still argue that these are extremely complicated engines that require extreme maintenance, not exactly what you want to drop into a atmosphere like Jupiter’s. One question though, the ram jet mixes fuel and air for combustion. The "air" of Jupiter is mostly Hydrogen and Helium. For a scramjet to work would you have to carry an oxidizer in place of fuel and use the scramjet by burning the atmosphere and using the oxidizer you carry with you?<br />

 

[saurc]

Either that or you could use a nuclear powered ramjet as suggested in the 2nd post.

 

[rocketman5000]

a nuculear ramjet would be relatively simple compared to a scramjet. All you are doing is heating the air using a nuclear reactor. In fact you can't even have a nuclear scramjet because you aren't combusting anything.

 

[jschaef5]

"I still argue that these are extremely complicated engines that require extreme maintenance"<br /><br />This may also be incorrect as ramjets/scramjets have much fewer moving parts than turbojets/turbofans have. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

ramjets are the simplest of all engines. Does the jovian atmosphere contain enough oxygen? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Nowhere near enough oxygen.<br /><br />To create combustion, you'd need to bring your own oxygen, but can probably harvest the fuel from the atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

I wonder if the atmosphere is concentrated enough in methane that you just run the ramjet backwards: feed oxygen from your tanks into the injectors and let the "fuel" come in through the scoop. With adjustments in shape for the different amount of compression, etc. Probably take a lot of oxygen though.<br /><br />The Jovian magnetic field is awfully intense. I wonder if some sort of magnetic propulsion would work.<br /><br />Just daydreaming - I don't have any of the numbers to say these would work.

 

[bdewoody]

Then by every definition of a ramjet I don't think one would work and I also wonder what kind of science it could do since the Radiation and magnetic fields around jupiter would fry all electronic components. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[saurc]

Why do you need methane? Jupiter has a lot of hydrogen, which is way better as a fuel.<br /><br />Speaking of which I have always thought about having oxygen powered aircrafts on Titan, using methane from the atmosphere.

 

[bdewoody]

You need a fuel, hydrogen, methane, alcohol etc. and an oxidizer ie oxygen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font color="yellow"> You need a fuel, hydrogen, methane, alcohol etc. and an oxidizer </font><br /><br />A nuclear engine requires no fuel other than a few pounds's of fissile materiel. A Nuclear Ramjet in the Jovian Atmosphere needs no oxidiser as the nuclear reactor heats & expells the reaction mass. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

That was my point. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Technically, a scramjet is fairly simple -- until you need to figure out ignition and the exact shape of the interior. Like a ordinary fuel driven ramjet, you need just one moving part -- a pump. Maybe not even that if you you can pressurize the tanks like those in the Apollo lander. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Why do you need methane? Jupiter has a lot of hydrogen, which is way better as a fuel.<br /><br />Speaking of which I have always thought about having oxygen powered aircrafts on Titan, using methane from the atmosphere.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>You need a fuel, hydrogen, methane, alcohol etc. and an oxidizer ie oxygen.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Did you read bdewoody's post? I quoted above yours for your convenience. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Please read some of the other posts. They have included proposals for Jupiter providing fuel. We need to only provide some form of oxidizer. Other proposals include a nuclear design. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Your PDF was perilously short of data. One question I had was whether the exhaust would be radioactive. (I won't accept that in case we need to go back to where we have been for more data or need to cross our previous path.) Also, would the ramjet use a reactor or a RTG? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

I know this is a "what if" thread but I doubt that we would ever use a nuclear ramjet type engine inside the atmosphere of any planet. It was only considered for a short time here on earth as the exhaust would spread radiation everywhere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[saurc]

First of all the exhaust from nuclear propulsion is only mildly radioactive, unless accidents occur. A lot of tests were carried out on Earth upto 1970 or so when it was finally banned.<br /><br />Secondly, why the hell would it matter if it is radioactive or not anyway, on Jupiter? Jupiter emits enormous amounts of radiation by itself, so it hardly makes a difference. Also there is no life or environment to conserve on Jupiter. I can't seriously see a problem here.

 

[CalliArcale]

I think he was speaking more of the problem of contaminating science results or possibly even scrambling the onboard computers with its own radiation, since he talked about the hazard of doubling back and crossing the exhaust trail. You make a good point about Jupiter's radiation environment -- additional radiation might be negligible. It still might be a problem if one were doing experiments involving ratios of radioactive ions, though, if one couldn't be sure the ions came from Jupiter and not the spacecraft itself. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>