In the Clouds of Venus

alpha_taur1 · Feb 12, 2005

Hi, This is my first post here. An idea that I'd like to explore is the possibility of setting up a balloon based station in the clouds of Venus. Obviously there are considerable risks to be controlled, but it would be interesting to see if there are ways around them. The atmospheric pressure at about 65 km altitude is around 350 mb. If we had an oxygen filled balloon at the same pressure, or even oxygen plus some helium, to give a partial pressure of oxygen equivalent to that on Earth this would be lighter than the Venusian atmosphere and would remain at about the same altitude. The advantages of such a station would include the fact that the temperature at 56km is a cool 25 degrees C (I think this applies to the unilluminated side of the planet), the gravity would be close to that of Earth, and there would be considerable protection against cosmic rays due to the extensive ionosphere. The barriers would include the high winds, turbulence, and the fact that the balloon will tend to drift into the daylight side with disastrous consequences. A tether attached to some high topographical feature was my first thought for controlling drift, but this is not without problems. The highest topography is around 20 km in Altitude from memory. I realise that the ground temperature is around 480 degrees C, and the surface pressure is 98 Bar, and that any major release of pressure would result in the occupance plummetting to the depths of Hades. Bolloon missions to Venus are not new - The Russian probes Vega 1 and Vega 2 included a balloon. Any thoughts?

tom_hobbes · Feb 12, 2005

Why not a series of nuclear Venusian rovers? Surely we have the technology these days to make it worthwhile. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

nexium · Feb 12, 2005

Welcome to space.com: I had heard the 480c on the surface is almost independent of day and night, even though the nights are about 1/3 year long. Perhaps the variation is also small at an altitude of 65 km. Air conditioning could protect the crew and vital equipment if the day side is no hotter than 100 degrees c. It may also be practical to shade the station with one of the 4 supporting balloons. We want more than one in case of failure. The station can have propellers (they can be designed for 350 mb = milibars) Harmful radiation may be lower than Earth. A 45 km tether would not be reliable with materials currently available, plus the station would be less stressed by wind gusts if it is floating free with a small amount of propulsion. Neil

nexium · Feb 12, 2005

Hi Tom: The 480 degrees c = 896 degrees f makes rover design very difficult, especially the electronics. Neil

alpha_taur1 · Feb 12, 2005

I guess we don't know enough about the direction of the air currents at 65km. If they are analogous to the jet stream on Earth then perhaps we could use a propellor driven craft to make use of changing wind directions to stay shaded. Energy could be derived from the heat differences within the Venusian atmosphere. A heat-pump, similar to a geothermal heat pump could be used to supply energy rather than a nuclear source. I agree about having two such devices. If we could lower a pressure cylinder to near the surface (with a pressure actuated valve, similar to certain down-hole devices used in the oil industry), we could have a ready supply of liquefied carbon dioxide for cooling purposes (once you let it cool and liquefy). Of course you wouldn't see very much from up there <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

CalliArcale · Feb 15, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr /> Hi Tom: The 480 degrees c = 896 degrees f makes rover design very difficult, especially the electronics. Neil<hr /></blockquote> To elaborate, the unsurmountable problem is heat dissipation. Your computer has a fan to keep the electronics cool enough to operate properly. (Too much heat and you can literally burn your computer enough to render it inoperable. And it takes surprisingly little with most computers. That's why supercomputers often sound like refrigerators -- that's exactly what their cooling system is!) The ISS has massive radiator arrays to dissipate heat, and ammonia flows between the various electronics and the radiators to keep things cool. Other spacecraft simply use metal-to-metal contact to get the heat to a radiator. For short-term cooling, you can use evaporator systems, such as spacesuits use. But none of these will work on the surface of Venus. The ambient temperature is very very hot. Due to conservation of energy, your heat has to go *somewhere*. There's no place to dump the heat on Venus, because it's so hot already. So you're stuck with either short-term solutions (the Veneras simply ran until they were too cooked to keep working) or some exotic new technology that nobody's thought of yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

cookie_thief · Feb 15, 2005

Do what desert creatures do. . . Since it would be nuclear powered, the rover could be built to travel a short distance and then burrow deep enough to escape the worst of the heat. It could then use the cooling off period to process the new data and relay it back to Earth. Once cooled off and another objective lined up, it would climb back out and move to the next target. Bt studying the planet above and below ground, we would be killing two birds with one stone. It wouldn't have to dig far to reach relatively cool material. This, of course, is assuming there is relatively "soft" terrain to begin with. JMHO.

mrmorris · Feb 15, 2005

"...some exotic new technology that nobody's thought of yet. " Thinking outside of the box (Shhhh -- don't tell them I escaped from the box). - Create a lander with the vast majority of the electronics in a central core. - Surrounding the core is a cold sink made from material with a high specific heat capacity -- cooled to the maximum extent possible (also thermally insulated from direct contact with the core). After several months in space -- it should be several hundred degrees below zero if it was shielded from direct sunlight. - Surrounding the 'cold sink' is a significant amount of thermal insulation. These form the 'passive' elements protecting the lander from Venus' heat. To that we add two active elements. - Thermoelectric elements which use the heat difference between the cold sink and the surface temperature to produce electricity. These will convert heat energy directly to electrical power. - Stirling generators run 'cooler' mode will make use of a large portion of the electrical energy to pump heat *from* the 'cold sink' *to* the atmosphere. The high temperature of the ambient air means that the *hot* side of the stirling engine would have to be extremely hot in order to radiate. Questionable -- but theoretically possible. It certainly wouldn't stave off heat-death forever, but it's an interesting concept to use Venus' heat to generate electrical power to protect from Venus' heat.

conventi · Feb 15, 2005

Once again, a typical Stevehw33 response, his opinion stated as fact. So no more discussion please, close this thread, Stevehw33 knows it all. Conventi

CalliArcale · Feb 15, 2005

What does that have to do with discussing hypothetical probes to Venus? Regardless of whether it has life or not, it would be fascinating to explore it more. It hasn't been serious studied since Magellan. (Cassini flew past it, of course, but there's only so much you can do in a quick flyby. The next encounter will be by MESSENGER, which will also just be passing through, using its gravity to get to where its going.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

thalion · Feb 15, 2005

^ Actually, Venus Express (assuming it takes off October this year) will get there several months before MESSENGER. Fortunately, MESSENGER's crew will probably hold their pics a little less loosely to their chest. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Got nothing but love for ESA, by the way!

thalion · Feb 15, 2005

Re Morris: Groovy reply. I myself have been reading about some of the design specifications of the Veneras, and they were pretty nifty. For instance, they had the probes chilled before entry began, to give them a greater "temperature cushion", and let them free fall through the lowest part of the atmosphere to minimize exposure to the high heat. They also had some lithium compound on board designed to increase the specific heat of the lander. I've been playing with two ideas myself: 1.) Actually *increase* the temperature of the outside of the lander above the ambient level, to create a net heat loss rather than heat gain; meanwhile, heavily shield the interior with a Thermos-like covering, inside of which the electronics are kept cold as long as possible. 2.) Use some kind of molten ionic salt as a substitute refrigerant, one with a melting point higher than Venus's surface temperature--believe it or not, salt might work. The salt would cool and crystallize, giving up heat to the atmosphere, and hopefully prevent a net heat gain in the (again, heavily-insulated) interior. 3.) Of course, we could always take the low-tech option and simply design electronics designed to work at *relatively* high temperatures--not insanely high, but high enough to perhaps double the lifetime on the surface. The first two would require a lot of R&D, and those are probably over the horizon. The third option, though, I bet is easily within our reach. [edit--New idea] 4.) Use regular, hard-frozen water ice as an insulator around the main lander. Have an outlet for the water vapor to escape. The ice will melt and boil off, buying some time for the insulated interior. Or, as Morris suggested, we could use the difference between the melting ice and the exterior to actively maintain the ice, or at least keep the water favorably cool. This wouldn't be a magic bullet--I don't doubt that the heat added

alpha_taur1 · Feb 15, 2005

"...some exotic new technology that nobody's thought of yet. " How about some exotic old technology that everybody's forgotten about? - miniaturised thermionic valve based computers. You won't even need heated cathodes on Venus <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ok there are problems to solve. Problems are the pessimistic word for opportunities. They are not brick walls. I'd use quartz envelopes. Quartz melts at 1600 degrees C.

tom_hobbes · Feb 16, 2005

Fantastic ideas, Mr Morris. And thanks all, you've certainly fueled my excitement and enthusiasm! Let's hope someone is listening... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

spaceman186000mps · Feb 16, 2005

Venus, the Roman Goddess of Love Fascinating thread indeed to all responses. Would it be possible? : to create more durable capacitors, resistors and diodes etc., by alloying silicone and shuttle tile material, then coating and encasing these components in an amount of material such as the shuttle tiles are made from to slow the outside temperature from getting to them and also allow the temperature of the components itself to radiate their heat away more slowly and evenly? What I'm really thinking here, is to attempt to make small cold computer components with a tiny amount of cold liquid nitrogen in the center, encased by silicon, then encased by an amount of shuttle tile material that could survive 2000 f or higher outside temperatures for longer periods of time. I personally think that Planet Venus may well possess many mysterious valuable resources that are yet conceived. The problem is, to retrieve them from such a hostile environment would take a whole new technology. Especially if humans could ever possibly traverse and explore the surface of Venus. What I'm saying is, Knowing what we know about valuable resources on Earth, Just Imagine what must be on and below the surface of Planet Venus. If the rule holds true that the heavier elements fall closer to it's star, then Planet Venuses heavy iron content, oil and exotic minerals would be more valuable and more condensed than Earths. I would also think that due to Venuses slow retrograde rotation and the continuous absence of centrifugal force at its surface, but yet the continuous lug of the the suns gravity on Venuses iron center, that the iron material at the core of Venus may well be more condensed than Earths rolling hot core is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> 70 percent of novel proceeds www.trafford.com/06-1593 are donated to www.caringbridge.org </div>

thalion · Feb 16, 2005

^ Good post. I actually think that Venus's mineral resources are more limited than Earth's for two main reasons: 1.) Many mineral deposits on Earth--I'm thinking of metals in particular--have been formed around granitic intrusive bodies. However, most of Venus's surface seems to be basaltic, and seems to be quite young at that. Other deposits like iron ores are often the result of old atmospheric reactions with biogenic oxygen; aluminum is often found in old rainforest soils. In short, many of the processes involving water or oxygen that lead to various metal deposits would probably be absent on Venus. 2.) What I'd be really interested in seeing is how Venus's unique atmospheric conditions and geochemistry have affected the composition and structure of its rocks. Could there be some kind of exotic metamorphism, or minerals we know nothing about on Venus? 3.) Actually, what I'd really like to know is what Venus's seismic environment and internal structure is like. We really have no good geophysical data on any world beyond the Moon, which is a shame. Knowing the seismic activity and thickness of the crust would go a long way toward answering our questions about its planetology. But hey, back to speculative technology. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Who wants to think up a feasible Venus sample-return? Having samples in our grubby little hands to have our way with is the only way to be sure. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> With a BDB we might be able launch the mass necessary to pull it off. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a giant lander that scoops or drills up surface material as quickly as possible, and places it in a canister which goes into a rocket. The rocket itself is released fromt he lander by means of a hydrogen or helium balloon which carries it to the upper atmosphere. The rocket fires and carries the canister into orbit. A later--or concurrent spacecr

chew_on_this · Feb 16, 2005

Steve blathers his usual blather: "Whether we like them or no. An insulting rejoinder simply does not lower the temps on Venus, nor make it possible for life to grow there. It's irrelevant. You're not going to find many competent biologists or planetologists who feel there is life on Venus, even in the atmosphere. They'd be far more dismissive of it than I am, most likely." Well steverino it looks like your size ten is down your throat again - http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1142.html I personally have seen many articles by more reputible scientists then whatever science you believe in broach the subject of past life on Venus. BTW, just cause Venus is hot now doesn't mean it was long ago. That's most likely where life in the high atmosphere would have been bourne, so to speak. That's all I have to say on the subject cause I know you'll rejoin with the usual schmackto schmacto.

tom_hobbes · Feb 16, 2005

Steve, you don't know. Neither do I, nor does anyone else. Until anyone does, there's no harm in speculating. That's all that need be said. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

taolung · Feb 16, 2005

Yes, it's just a theory, and no one knows for certain whether life could be in the Venus clouds. But at the same time, you're making large assumptions about life in general by positively declaring it isn't possible. Life on Earth keeps surprising us by how much heat, pressure, and lack of water it can sustain. Anyway, Google it: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2843 http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astrobio_venus_030211.html http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/space/1616042 There's more... But I want to get back to the idea of the balloon-base, since this is something that I've considered before and has been discussed in the past. At a good altitude, we have a mild temperature and earth-like atmospheric pressure. Life may or not be there now, but would a floating base of some kind be feasible? Would it even be possible to go outdoors with nothing but an oxygen mask and simple protection against the sulfer in the air?

thalion · Feb 16, 2005

I think it would be theoretically possible; IIRC, David Grinspoon (no lightweight in the planetology community) has speculated about something like that in Venus Revealed--a book I highly recommend, by the way. I think the major unknowns are: 1.) How to devise material that would be unaffected by long-term exposure in a sulfuric acid-rich environment. 2.) Possible difficulties with turbulence and stability. Check out the following link: http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2002/TM-2002-211467.html

tom_hobbes · Feb 17, 2005

"you're making large assumptions about life in general by positively declaring it isn't possible" I didn't say anything of the kind, but you're right, the balloon idea has merit and deserves some attention. I've read three or four serious articles along those lines. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

alpha_taur1 · Feb 17, 2005

I wouldn't go so far as to say that life is impossible in the clouds of Venus - just highly unlikely on the basis of current (scant) evidence. Even if it is highly unlikely, it still deserves consideration.

taolung · Feb 17, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />I didn't say anything of the kind<hr /></blockquote> Sorry, I wasn't referring to your post, but the one before it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

chew_on_this · Feb 17, 2005

You obviously didn't read the link. I'll take the planetary scientists view over yours anyday. I don't need to present any "scientific" explanations because it's already been done (in the link). What a hoot.

taolung · Feb 17, 2005

egad... maybe you didn't notice, but I posted three seperate articles that discuss exactly this. Again, for your amusement: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2843 http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astrobio_venus_030211.html http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/space/1616042 <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The team's theory is that microbes could be living in clouds 30 miles up in the Venusian atmosphere, where conditions are relatively balmy -- water droplets are present, the temperature is 158 degrees Fahrenheit and the atmosphere is similar to what it is on Earth. Using data from the Russian Venera space missions and the U.S. Pioneer Venus and Magellan probes, the team found chemical oddities there that could be explained by the presence of living microbes. <hr /></blockquote> No one is arguing that there *is* life there, just that it might be theoretically possible. Some of the challenges you brought up have been addressed. At least give it consideration...and perhaps at least attempt to look into it first. If you don't think it's possible, then fine. Lots of other scientists agree with you. But don't state it as a fact. Not yet, anyway.

In the Clouds of Venus

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