In the Clouds of Venus

tom_hobbes · Feb 18, 2005

Nobody is arguing from ignorance. Life arose on earth. We now that it can arise. We also know that conditions on Mars and Venus were not always as they are now. Such speculation is not an argument, it's merely speculation. I fail to understand how human knowledge has been advanced without it. Finding fossil evidence of microbes on Mars or Venus would be wonderful and useful knowledge, almost as much as finding life still ongoing. Your insistence that the rest of the solar system is or always has been sterile, from the vantage point of your armchair, seems at least as premature as any speculation to the contrary. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

tom_hobbes · Feb 18, 2005

At the very least there's a cracking story in that! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

alpha_taur1 · Feb 18, 2005

"Your insistence that the rest of the solar system is or always has been sterile, from the vantage point of your armchair, seems at least as premature as any speculation to the contrary." Sorry, but there I have to disagree. The default position is that the rest of the solar system has always been sterile. To consider otherwise without evidence is speculation. It is extremely unlikely that there is life elsewhere in the solar system based on the fact that there is no evidence to the contrary - yet. We tend to get carried away on the life fix. Somebody needs to bring us back to Earth in that respect. However, even though it has no stable geomagnetic field, the stable ionosphere of Venus provides considerable protection against radiation. The assertion that radiation levels in the clouds is high, is false. Sulfuric acid itself also absorbs strongly in the UV (around 235nm) and given the high concentration, this will afford considerable protection against UV. As far as long-term resistant meterials is concerned, there are many. These include Teflon, PVDF and Kevlar. Resistant metals include lead and Zirconium.

alpha_taur1 · Feb 18, 2005

Regarding heat exchangers, perhaps a fused salt based system may work at the surface, but a K/Na eutectic is an extremely efficient heat storage medium. I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with it on Venus, especially with all that sulfuric acid around <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> However it may be a suitable heat storage medium for use on a future moon colony, where there is a 14 day period without sunlight.

tom_hobbes · Feb 18, 2005

Indeed, I agree it's unlikely in the extreme. Everyone understands that (apart from one or two). But the only true default position is - 'We don't know'. Why jump on every single discussion of other possibilities at every opportunity? Life on other worlds is what we all hope for but realise we may never see. Steve begins to seem tiresomely dogmatic after a while. If you can't throw ideas around here, where can you? No one obliges Steve to participate in such discussions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

alpha_taur1 · Feb 18, 2005

I often wonder why we all hope for life on other worlds. I guess the main reason is that we would learn more about how life eventuated on Earth. It would give us a sample of more than one. I can't see anyone having any meaningful dialog with a microbe, but analysis of its structure would be illuminating. I can't see the problem with discussing the possibility of life, as long as we are aware of the fact that it is pure speculation. Unfortunately not everybody understands that extraterrestrial life (in the solar system) is unlikely in the extreme (but not impossible). We don't know yet, but we'd sure like to know. I guess this topic is probably better discussed in the SETI thread.

najab · Feb 18, 2005

>I do know one fact. There is no life on Venus.Where's your scientific proof? How is theory (not fact) of yours any more valid than the theory that there could be life? For you to state "there is no life" with no conclusive supporting evidence is nothing but pure arrogance.

spaceman186000mps · Feb 18, 2005

Facts about Extremophiles such as Pyschrophiles, Foraminifera, Endoliths, and Hypoliths etc. suggest that life can exist in hydrogen environments that humans can and can not be exposed to. It's even been suggested that Extremophiles exist in the very center of nuclear reactors and in the water that is used for cooling them. Soooo... by doing some research on these Extremophiles, it has brought this astronomy science loving dude to the conclusion that life has a huge chance of being very much prevalent through-out our solar system ... Though the core samples from the moon showed no signs of microbial life, I suspect those results would have been quite different had there been a mission to sample the water ice from near the lunar polar areas. One fact seems very certain... Life must have hydrogen in some form to exist and hydrogen is very prevalent throughout our solar system. Now... back to Venus and here's where I get a little wild with my pitch to you the receiver at home plate. Venus that Roman Female Goddess of Love... If You or I were not humans, but still yet another sort of sophisticated race of beings, ( of any nature you may imagine) Sophisticated meaning that They or It , use scientific facts and mathematical knowledge in the same ways that the yet undiscovered humans do on a measurable logical basis. This new race of beings, entering our solar system for the first time would view all the planets moons and it's center star as a unit and soon realize that their are peculiar facts about planet Venus that makes it uniquely different than the rest. Slowly rotates retrograde, in an almost perfect circular orbit around its parent star. Always presents same face toward Planet Earth at closest opposition. And I'll probably get jumped about these following statements of opinion. That Venus seems to be causing planet Mercury to roll and rotate slowly eastward <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> 70 percent of novel proceeds www.trafford.com/06-1593 are donated to www.caringbridge.org </div>

alpha_taur1 · Feb 18, 2005

Ok, apart from yourself, and the guy you were talking to at the pub, who has suggested that extremophiles can live in the centre of nuclear reactions?

spaceman186000mps · Feb 18, 2005

Sorry lol ... I sort of misstated that. What I meant was that certain life forms could withstand the radiation level from a nuclear reactor and still survive. Mightier than a cockroach: Toxitolerant organisms can withstand high levels of damaging agents. They can be found swimming around in benzene saturated water or in the core of a nuclear reactor. I don't drink alcohol. But here's toast and a swig of cold apple juice to ya.( !cheers! ) I found it here http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050207_extremophiles.html A Yellowstone hot spring. Credit: USGS Your Ancestors May Be Martian Life on Mars: Swimming Right Under the Surface? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One species of bacteria, Deinococcus radiodurans, can withstand a 15,000 gray dose of radiation – 10 grays would kill a human and it takes over 1,000 grays to kill a cockroach. Extraterrestrial life forms would most likely need to possess similar tolerances to radiation, as the atmosphere on other planets, or lack thereof, filters out much less radiation than Earth’s. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> 70 percent of novel proceeds www.trafford.com/06-1593 are donated to www.caringbridge.org </div>

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In the Clouds of Venus

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