Infinity

[Gibsense]

I would agree on the basis that what we do not know, possibly only temporally, is, at least for the moment, unknowable.

Ha Ha you two. How about this: the unknowable (for us) might be found out by , say, mathematics which can perhaps know all But no one conceivably understands the extreme mathematics (that the AI stated) except those that say how beautiful they are (whilst still not understanding).
Playing with complex equations and following the rules is one thing but getting the results to achieve intuitional thinking is quite another - the extremes of string theory for example.

Also Topology is a killer.

So the unknowable by us is known by mathematics (and maybe AI)

 

[Catastrophe]

Whoknows, here is an interesting aside, I found in my current reading:

If, therefore, life began, or even still exists subsurface on Mars, such a discovery may deliver insight into our own origins that would simply not be possible by studying the weathered, ever-changing ecosystems of Earth. This may be the gift of unknowable Mars; she's less unknowable than Earth.

Cat

 

[Catastrophe]

Ha Ha you two. How about this: the unknowable (for us) might be found out by , say, mathematics which can perhaps know all But no one conceivably understands the extreme mathematics (that the AI stated) except those that say how beautiful they are (whilst still not understanding).
Playing with complex equations and following the rules is one thing but getting the results to achieve intuitional thinking is quite another - the extremes of string theory for example.

Also Topology is a killer.

So the unknowable by us is known by mathematics (and maybe AI)

topology

1. 1.
   the way in which constituent parts are interrelated or arranged.
   "using distances determined in this manner ignores existing road conditions and topology that can potentially affect travel time and costs"
   
   
2. 2.
   Mathematics
   the study of geometrical properties and spatial relations unaffected by the continuous change of shape or size of figures.

Mathematics cannot think.

Do you mean that mathematics is just another means of abstraction?

For example, assigning a numerical value to a quantity.

Also, you posted "for us", making it just another limited example of abstraction.


Cat

 

[Gibsense]

Mathematics cannot think.

Do you mean that mathematics is just another means of abstraction?

For example, assigning a numerical value to a quantity.

Also, you posted "for us", making it just another limited example of abstraction.

Mathematics by AI can think or AI can think Mathematics - I put AI in brackets.

"Do you mean that mathematics is just another means of abstraction?"I don't know what you mean for sure but my answer is : Yes:

Assigning a numerical value: I suppose that could be considered an abstraction.

Also, you posted "for us", making it just another limited example of abstraction. Er, possibly

 

[Jim Franklin]

Is infinity unreal? We talk about infinite space or an infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1 a sort of endless division by 2 or whatever. But I wonder how real Infinite actually is.

• Take an infinite line and join the ends. Is it a finite circle? Or is it an infinitely expanding circle?
• How about the real numbers between 0 and 1. If you integrate from 0 to 1 you get 1. Is that like joining the ends?
• And, even if the universe is closed (as opposed to an infinite flat Euclidian one) can it expand infinitely?

It seems as if there is a resolution (like joining the ends) but more profound. As if there is something more fundamental than 'joining the ends'
I cannot crack it. Anyone?

Infinity comes from odl latin meaning "without end", in English, ininity has been given various, what I call, woke, meanings, but in the literal sense, Infinity means the same as the latin meaning - it is something without end.

Thus, when you ask about infinity you are asking a double negative because infinity has a defined definition that there is no other explanation or answer for.

Is the Universe infinite - we will never know, there is a horizon beyond which we will never be able to see so the visible Universe is FINITE, meaning it has a defined edge, and that currently sits at 13.8 billion light years.

With regards you numbers - there are still a finite number of "numbers" between 0 and 1, it simply depends on what you define as the integer (the difference between each number). If you said each part of the space between 0 and 1 was broken down into divisions that were 1x10E1000, eventually, with enough additional numbers, you would reach 1 - take a bloody long time and your computer would have exploded and waved a white flag in surrender millions of years before, but theoretically you could do that. Bear in mind that current estimates put the number of stars in the observable Universe as 10x10E24 and the number of the grain of sands on Earth beaches (exclusing that at the bottom of seas, oceans, lakes and rivers, is estimated to be around the same number - you see the problem?

 

[Catastrophe]

Mathematics by AI can think or AI can think Mathematics - I put AI in brackets.

"Do you mean that mathematics is just another means of abstraction?"I don't know what you mean for sure but my answer is : Yes:

Assigning a numerical value: I suppose that could be considered an abstraction.

Also, you posted "for us", making it just another limited example of abstraction. Er, possibly

Then:

If “Curiosity” is the extension of our hands and MRO our eyes, MAVEN is our nose, sniffing the air to clues of the past.

Quote: The Planets by Brian Cox (Author), Andrew Cohen (Author)

I suggest Mathematics corresponds to our fingers, used as a basis for quantifying.

Another basis for abstraction. Not an independent intelligence. A modus operandi. A tool.

Cat

 

[whoknows]

"That's all" seems fairly final.

I only think we differ semantically, possibly because we are not understanding each other.

Re: the above. if we do not know enough to assert that external reality is unknowable, I would agree on the basis that what we do not know, possibly only temporally, is, at least for the moment, unknowable.

You can have the last word, but I hope that it might mean that we sort of agree on that, and leave any residual doubt as due to semantics. Otherwise, we might have to start picking at definitions, and what we think the other person means, which might be temporally unknowable. Nice talking with you.

Cat

"Otherwise, we might have to start picking at definitions, and what we think the other person means, which might be temporally unknowable."

Yikes!!! - heaven forbid.

"Nice talking with you."

You too Cat

 

[whoknows]

I hope you don't mind me extending this tangent of your Infinity topic Gibsense, but the elephant in the room, imo, is consciousness/awareness - the (our) interface between internal and external reality.

 

[Gibsense]

I hope you don't mind me extending this tangent of your Infinity topic Gibsense, but the elephant in the room, imo, is consciousness/awareness - the (our) interface between internal and external reality.

Please do. perhaps it is time for contributors to be more explicit about what they mean re external/internal reality - does it match your comment (?) Tangents can be hanging fruit.