Is there oil on Mars?

[finbob]

So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?

 

[jatslo]

crazyeddie said: <font color="yellow">It's <b>HIGHLY unlikely</b> that the conditions necessary to make oil ever existed on Mars. That would have required a vigorous biosphere and active plate tectonics.</font><br /><br />Sorry, I missed the math on that far-fetched fallacy; would you mind running the numbers by one more time for old Jatslo please? The argument is this: There may very well be oil on Mars, because the Earth has oil. <br /><br />I left you room to wiggle out with tail between your legs, crazyeddie.<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Highly unlikely to be oil on Mars, unless there was a biosphere, and perhaps not even then. There are tiny traces of methane though.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The fact of the matter is this: There may very well be oil on Mars, because the Earth has oil.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />The earth has plenty of things that mars doesn't and oil is likely one of them. Oil isn't a strictly geologic process – it has to start with a hydro-carbon rich environment that is sustained over geologic periods. That how the pockets form (or at least that's a simplifucation of accepted theory). It's another reason that oil is called a "fossil fuel." <br /><br />While it's not impossible there could be oil, mars would've had to have a nearly-instant biosphere that lasted for millions of years before the weather went south. As yet, the evidence doesn't suggest that mars ever supported that kind of rich environment. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

So much for crazyeddie's wiggle room; Ordinary_Guy beat him to it. I changed "fact" to "argument".<br /><br />My point is that "HIGHLY UNLIKELY" is a statistical probability that is baseless without evidence.

 

[jatslo]

Earth is a planet with reservoirs of oil, and Mars is a planet, so Mars has reservoirs of oil too.

 

[dragon04]

In particular, there would have had to been aquatic animals and plants in a saltwater sea to make the oil that we are most familiar with.<br /><br />Not only that, but marine life would have needed to exist for a long time for enough matter to die and decay into significant quantities of oil.<br /><br />Plate tectonics aren't an absolute necessity. You just need a bed of decaying matter that lays in mud with a low oxygen content, and a sedimentary cover over top of it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You also need a subsiding basin that allows deep enough burial to get thermal cracking of kerogen to form oil. Typically that requires several km of burial. It is not clear whether Martian sedimentary basins every got that thick.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

As well, Mars doen't appear to have been terribly geologically active, except in brief spurts (discounting it's very early history). It differentiated too fast, and doesn't have an active core. Even assuming an active biosphere (for which there is little or no evidence), it's unclear to me how it could have occurred. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

I am just making a point, so that we can discuss this in a healthy way without jumping to conclusions, crazyeddie. Come on man, what evidence do we have so far? ZIP, with repsect to oil. Can MARSIS detect it or find clues? Let's put it to the test.

 

[JonClarke]

By that logic so must Venus and Mercury. Is this what you are saying?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rhodan]

<i>Earth is a planet with reservoirs of oil, and Mars is a planet, so Mars has reservoirs of oil too.</i><br /><br />Using jatslo's logic even Jupiter should have oil...Hmmm, that seem highly unlikely. But I can see where he's coming from, although he could have put it all a bit nicer, imho.<br /><br />Dragon04 posted: --<i>Not only that, but marine life would have needed to exist for a long time for enough matter to die and decay into significant quantities of oil.</i><br /><br />Well one requirement for marine life has been confirmed; water. There's our sun as a source of energy. Perhaps a thicker atmosphere in the distant past, before it oozed away into space. How much time would you need for a thick enough coat of primitive martian plants to produce oil?

 

[slayera]

I hate to interject, because I know nothing... but I thought there was some evidence or at least a suggestion that oil came from comets.

 

[jatslo]

Yes.

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Sorry, I missed the math on that far-fetched fallacy..."</font><br />What are you calling a fallacy? That it is likely there is oil on Mars? That Oil on Mars would require a vigorous biosphere? That it would require active plate tectonics? Or some combination of the above?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"The argument is this: There may very well be oil on Mars, because the Earth has oil."</font><br />I saw no argument in the original post, just a simple question. Is this your argument? <br /><br />Is this a case of someone trying to be funny and coming off sounding like a jerk? If so, my apologies and/or sympathy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Rhodan said: <font color="yellow">Using jatslo's logic even Jupiter should have oil...Hmmm, that seem <b>highly unlikely</b>. But I can see where he's coming from, although he could have put it all a bit nicer, imho.</font><br /><br />Sorry I disappointed you Rhodan, and I realize two-wrongs don't make it right, but I have been receiving some down right nasty correspondences myself. Not only that, but I hear that some members in SDC have gone through great lengths to send e-mail correspondences that involve ignorance or ignoring me.<br /><br />On another note, “<font color="yellow">highly improbable</font>is a “<b>statistical probability</b>” that don't mean squat unless you have evidence to substantiate it ;o)<br /><br />Planet Earth has oil, and Jupiter does not have oil, so Jupiter is not a planet. Is this your argument? <br />

 

[yevaud]

<img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

centsworth_II said: <font color="yellow">What are you calling a fallacy? That it is <b>likely</b> there is oil on Mars? That Oil on Mars would require a vigorous biosphere? That it would require active plate tectonics? Or some combination of the above? <br /><br /></font><font color="yellow">likely</font> is a "<b>Statistical Probability</b> and is a meaningless and baseless assumption when you do not have evidence to back it up. That is a "Far-Fetched Fallacy", quote, and unquote. I am curious; why you do not jump on crazyeddie when crazyeddie bashes Jatslo?<font color="yellow"><br /><br />"The argument is this: There may very well be oil on Mars, because the Earth has oil." <br />I saw no argument in the original post, just a simple question. Is this your argument?<br /><br /></font> lot of individuals are stating opinions as facts and visa versa. Do you not think that it is a little derelict and irresponsible for someone who is claiming to be the foremost authority in the matter, to be forcing their opinion on someone without evidence to back it up?<font color="yellow"> <br /><br />Is this a case of someone trying to be funny and coming off sounding like a jerk? If so, my apologies and/or sympathy.</font><br /><br />You can take it, however you want to take it, I really don't care. <br />

 

[dragon04]

Geological timespans, Rhodan.<br /><br />Maybe in a century or 2, we'll have a definitive answer, eh? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[jatslo]

slayerA said: “<font color="yellow">but I thought there was some evidence or at least a suggestion that oil came from comets</font>#8221;<br /><br />Earth contains water, and comets contain water. Earth contains oil, so comets contain oil. You might be onto something, slayerA, so keep plugging away.

 

[jmilsom]

<i>There may very well be oil on Mars, because the Earth has oil.</i><br /><br />I gather it also holds true then that:<br /><br />There may very well be cheeseburgers on Mars, because Earth has cheeseburgers. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a damn good question that I want to know the answer to myself.<br />

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...why you do not jump on crazyeddie when crazyeddie bashes Jatslo?"</font><br />I have no idea if there is a history between you two, all I am going by is this thread in which the first three posts went thusly:<br /><br />1. Simple question<br />2. Simple opinion<br />3. lunatic attack<br /><br />I'm sure crazyeddie doesn't need my help. I was letting off some steam on my own. Resetting my BS meter if you will. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Do you not think that it is a little derelict and irresponsible for someone who is claiming to be the foremost authority in the matter, to be forcing their opinion on someone without evidence to back it up?</font><br />I saw no such claim. It seems you are lying when you say that there was one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

jmilsom said: <font color="yellow">There may very well be cheeseburgers on Mars, because Earth has cheeseburgers.</font><br /><br />That one is a little bit easier to disprove. For example, if you were arguing McDonald's cheeseburgers, as opposed to cheeseburgers in general, I could access McDonald's database to see, if in fact, they are open for business on Mars. If it turned out that they do not have a drive-through on Mars, then I could refute your argument with evidence.<br /><br />The fact of the matter is this: We do not know, if oil reservoirs exist on Mars, right? The Earth is a Planet that has McDonald's cheeseburgers, and Mars is a Planet, so Mars has McDonald's cheeseburgers too.<br />

 

[jatslo]

<font color="yellow">I saw no such claim. It seems you are lying when you say that there was one.</font><br /><br />Actually, I am telling the truth and crazyeddie was lying about a high unlikely-ness that oil does exist on Mars. He didn't say, "I think" or "maybe", said definitively stated his opinion as fact, in which that is untruthfulness on his behalf, not mine. <br />