Is there oil on Mars?

[jatslo]

centsworth_II said, "<font color="yellow">You are making up words and meanings that were not in the post you are responding to.</font>; quote, and unquote.<br /><br />You, Sir, are a liar, because I did not quote anyone in my response, and anyone with half a brain can see that you are just as uneducated as crazyeddie is. Your accusations of falsifications will lead to your demise.

 

[centsworth_II]

Sorry if I mistakenly thought you were responding to stevehw33's post above yours.<br /><br />By the way, what's with the "quote, and unquote" every time you quote someone? You've already used quotation marks. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">"...will lead to your demise."</font><br />What is this? Dungeons and Dragons? <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

centsworth_II said, "<font color="yellow">By the way, what's with the "quote, and unquote" every time you quote someone?</font>; quote, and unquote.<br /><br />Answer: It is more perceptive, visible, etc. Presentation is critical in debating, would you agree?

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Presentation is critical in debating, would you agree?"</font><br /><br />I certainly would. That's why I question your redundant use of "quote and unquote". It stikes me as irritating and pretentious, but perhaps you have better luck impressing others with your "presentation". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

TY for the feedback, centsworth_II; it is always welcome news.

 

[jatslo]

FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a damn good question that I want to know the answer to myself.<br /><br />Crazyeddie said, "<font color="yellow"> Marcel, unless you are seriously mentally deranged, and therefore can't h</font>

 

[tomnackid]

What's up with the theory that petroleum is largely abiotic? From what I've read petroleum does show chirality indicating biology, but only a very tiny amount. An amount that could be better explained by extremophiles feeding off the petroleum rather than the petroleum being the by product of life. As others have pointed out the solar system is rich in hydrocarbons that definitely are not the result of life.

 

[slayera]

Question: then where does the methane on a Mars come from? <br /><br />I know there is proof of it. <br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEML131XDYD_0.html<br /><br />

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo's response to crazyeddie, slayer, Astevehw33, and tomnackid:<br /><br />FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="white"><b>Jatslo's Ecidence:</b></font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a</font>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">Question: then where does the methane on a Mars come from? </font><br /><br />It's almost certainly abiogenic.<br /><br />One possible source is decomposition of certain minerals in the mantle.<br /><br />Another possible source if photoreduction of C02 over some oxide sands.<br /><br /><br />Both possibilities have been discussed in detail in this forum, and either could account for the very minute traces observed in the Martian atmosphere. The former source has a few journal papers discussing it too. Use the forum "search" function, it works well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo's Response to silylene:<br /><br />FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="white"><b>Jatslo's Ecidence:</b></font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a damn good question that I want to kno</font>

 

[tom_hobbes]

Apples are not oranges. My sofa is not an orange. Therefore my sofa is an apple. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#339966"> I wish I could remember<br /> But my selective memory<br /> Won't let me</font><font size="2" color="#99cc00"> </font><font size="3" color="#339966"><font size="2">- </font></font><font size="1" color="#339966">Mark Oliver Everett</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[paleo]

Tom, good observation on the fallacy of the logic a lot of so called 'proof'. <br /><br /> As a biostratigrapher (using biostratigraphy to identify carbon energy deposits) I'd bet highly against there being any petroleum-type deposits on Mars. The presence of hydrocarbons (methane) is no more 'petroleum' than a pile of bricks is a building. <br /><br /> Even apart from the speculation of the past presence of organics etc. is the absence of the necessary physical pressures for formation or the sedimentary needs for entrapment.<br /><br /> <br /><br />

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo's response to paleo and Tom_Hobbes:<br /><br />FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="white"><b>Jatslo's Ecidence:</b></font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a damn good question that I</font>

 

[jatslo]

Jatslo's response to stevehw33's last two volley's of spew:<br /><br />FinBob said: <font color="yellow">So, is there oil on Mars and can MARSIS detect it?</font><br /><br /><font color="white"><b>Jatslo's Evidence:</b></font><br /><br /><font color="orange">An underground zone of liquid water will have very different electrical properties from the surrounding rocks and it will reflect very strongly. Scientists should be able to see the top of a liquid zone somewhere in the upper 2-3 kilometers (1-2 miles) fairly easily, and may be able to go down to 5 km (about 3 miles) or more. The radio waves will be reflected at any interface, not just that between rock and water, so <font color="white"><b>MARSIS should reveal much about the composition of the top 5 kilometers (about 3 miles) of crust in general</b></font> It should, for example, pick out layers of rock interspersed with ice, which are more likely to exist close to the Martian surface than liquid water. Scientists should be able to measure the thickness of sand deposits in sand dune areas, or determine whether there are layers of sediment sitting on top of other material in areas hypothesised to be the sites of ancient lakes or oceans. They may even see the boundaries between different lava flows ( REFERENCE ). </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Oil is a generic term for organic liquids that are not miscible with water ( REFERENCE ).</font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">Well I cannot find anything on the electrical properties of oil; however, oil and water are both liquids, and the MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, so it is plausible that the MARSIS could detect reservoirs of oil too, but I am not sure. Composition might suggest reservoirs of something other than water. That is a damn goo</font>

 

[paleo]

Jatslo:<br /><br />"Earth is a planet with reservoirs of oil, and Mars is a planet, so Mars has reservoirs of oil too."<br /><br /> huh?

 

[jatslo]

If you want to compare alien abductions and marsh-mellows, then by all means do <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />.

 

[paleo]

jatslo, <br /><br />Cut and paste are the tools most abused. <br /><br />Do a Google search on 'alien abduction' and you will get just over 1,500,000 hits. Do some cutting and pasting (instead of thinking) and prove 'scientifically' that there are marshmallows on Earth so why shouldn't there be marshmallows on Mars (to use your previous logic re oil). <br /><br />to quote jatslo <br /><br />"Earth is a planet with reservoirs of oil, and Mars is a planet, so Mars has reservoirs of oil too.'<br /><br /> Now substitute the words 'resevoirs of oil' with 'bags of marshmallows'. <br />

 

[jatslo]

Oh, you want me to delete my previous posts. Well, I will stand back and observe the big picture before I decide, to see where the tactical advantage will fall, because I certainly do not want to give tactical advantage to my opponents.

 

[spayss]

Please don't delete or you might remove evidence of a textbook case-study in self-agrandisement and paranoia. The classic manic-depressive.

 

[JonClarke]

Thomas Gold's ideas werefundamentally wrong on many levels.<br /><br />If you want to explain etrretsrial oil abiogenically you have to explain a great many things that are inconsistent with the eory.<br /><br />1. Is almost entirely associated with sedimentary basins, not areas where igenous rocks that have tapped the mantle occur.<br /><br />2. Oil is very strongly istopically fractionated, consistent with biological origin.<br /><br />3. Oil contains complex biomarkers that allow you to tie it to specific sedimentary units rich in biological organic matter. <br /><br />4. These biomarkers are characteristic of specific organisms and change in parallel with the evolution of life.<br /><br />Again, the internet is not a reliable source. A lot of people have latched on to the abiogenic theory of oil because of political reasons. But there is no scientific justification for it whatsoever. <br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

Jon,<br /><br />Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with your analysis. There not only is oil on Mars, but also on Titan and the comets. So, unfortunately, we now no longer have any choice in the matter. We <i>must</i> go out and colonize the solar system, since otherwise a great deal of valuable petroleum will go to waste.<br /><br />My post is in no way driven by any political motivations.

 

[thechemist]

http://www.ahajokes.com/crt871.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Nicely tongue in cheek.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

JonClarke said, "<font color="yellow">Again, the internet is not a reliable source.</font>: Quote, and unquote.<br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">Your attempt to discredit Jatslo has failed, because of the following counter blow to your creditability, JonClarke:<br /><br />The Internet is referred to as information technology that is rapidly evolving into the greatest resource in the history of humanity; even Amazon.com is making literature available for online use. You have probably heard that Google was scanning literature, well, so are a lot of other online organizations. Serious researchers are going to rely on the Internet for information in the 21st-Century, and you can bet the farm on it. In fact, I was reading a book on Amazon.com just yesterday, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you JonClarke.<font color="white">": Quote, and unquote.<br /><br /><font color="white"><b>Jatslo’s Counter Argument:</b></font><br /><br />Jatslo said, "<font color="white">The Internet is a cesspool of misinformation, yet, reputable individuals, groups, and teams publish high-quality work on the Internet as well; therefore, we can conclude that there is great deal of information to be had through technology, but one must be careful and meticulous as a scholar, because there is also a great many misleading and malicious electronic communications too. <font color="white">": Quote, and unquote.</font></font></font></font>