Is there oil on Mars?

[earthseed]

Hi, Jon. This thread bring back memories of a thread I started in the pre-meltdown forum. I am surprised to took so long for Thomal Gold to be mentioned.<br /><br />I seem to recall that it is possible that there are small amounts of abiogenic oil from primordial carbon on Earth, with the emphasis on small. That would imply the same thing on Mars, as the two planets were from from the same materials. But we are talking about trace amounts here. Forget the oil rigs.<br /><br />Have I got this right?

 

[jatslo]

<font color="white"><b>Petroleum and Methane Support for Mars:<b></b></b></font><br /><br /><font color="orange">Evidence exists that the planet once was significantly more habitable than today, but the question whether living organisms ever actually existed there is an open one. Some researchers think that a certain rock which is believed to have originated on Mars - specifically, meteorite ALH84001 - does contain evidence of past biologic activity, but no consensus about these claims has been achieved so far and recent research indicates that the rock, since its creation several billion years ago, has never been exposed to temperatures for extended periods of time that would allow for liquid water.<br /><br />The Viking probes carried experiments designed to detect microorganisms in Martian soil at their respective landing sites, and had some positive results, later denied by many scientists, resulting in ongoing controversy. Also, present biologic activity is one of the explanations that have been suggested for the presence of traces of methane within the Martian atmosphere, but other explanations not involving life are generally considered more likely.<br /><br />If colonization is going to happen, Mars seems a likely choice due to its rather hospitable conditions (compared with other planets, it is most like Earth) ( REFERENCE ).</font><br />

 

[JonClarke]

The internet has its uses, I use it all the time for work but you need judgement. Often the best information is still not on the internet. And the web is the home of lots of people with odd ideas to push, as well well know. So telling you to be careful of quoting the internet is a warning to the wise.<br /><br />The fact is there is no evidence for significant formation of oil on earth by abiogenic means. There is also lots of evidence against it, as I have listed already. These issues have already been discussed on these boards already. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I'm also surprised that has taken so long too. <br /><br />There are traces of abiogenic methane on earth, typically synthesised in hydrothermal systems. There may even be smaller traces of primordial methane (which was what Gold believed). But not oil. <br /><br />There are several abiogenic mechanisms plausible for Mars that could maintain the 100 tonnes or so of methane thought to be present in the atmospere in a quasi steady state.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[earthseed]

So what is the definition of oil? From this list of definitions, the first is:<blockquote><em>A naturally occurring mixture composed predominantly of hydrocarbons in the gaseous, liquid or solid phase.</em></blockquote><br />By that definition, methane is oil, so there is oil on Mars. jatslo, in spite of himself, may actually be technically correct. But in reality, the amounts are so tiny as to be only a scientific curiosity.

 

[jatslo]

Yeah, take that SDC minions: earthseed is right. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br />Wait a second: "<font color="yellow">the amounts are so tiny</font>? No, Jatslo will not compromise! There is a wealth to be had on Mars, and by George, it is OIL!!!

 

[jatslo]

stevehw33 said, "<font color="yellow">far more 'oil' than will ever be found on Mars.</font>: Quote, and unquote.<br /><br />Oh, so now you're conceding to oil on Mars as a statistical probability now aren’t you; however, Jatslo will not meet on middle ground on the subject matter. There is wealth on Mars and that wealth is OIL, so get off your couch potato butts and start drilling.

 

[JonClarke]

Just to be picky, that definition is for petroleum, not oil, which is a subset.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[earthseed]

I thought they were the same thing. So what is the distinction between the two?

 

[earthseed]

And, stevehw33, that day's worth of 'petroleum' is distributed around the entire planet, and would take far more energy to extract than it ever could provide.

 

[jatslo]

He is trying to trick you, OIL is a byproduct of petroleum, Methane is a byproduct of petroleum, and there is evidence for Methane on Mars, which is a petroleum product, so since petroleum exists on Mars; OIL exists on Mars too. Don't listen to the SDC minions of misinformation and lies, for they are blocking forward momentum towards Earth, The Moon, Then Mars mission objectives.

 

[vogon13]

Does this help?<br /><br />From time to time, it is a certainty that D-type asteroids (and their fragments) impact on Mars. As noted earlier, this variety contains a carbon rich substance similar to kerogen, a petroleum precursor. With the explosive impact dispersing the incoming asteroidal debris, and the Martian soil containing strong oxidizing substances, can we assert that everyone is correct to a degree?<br /><br />There probably is dispersed precursor chemicals introduced onto Mars from time to time. Perhaps in great quantities.<br /><br />However, the weird soil and the solar UV rapidly degrade the materials to C, CO and CO2 (and other simple chemicals).<br /><br />Absent a mechanism in the Martian environment that may protect and concentrate this dispersed material, we sadly, must conclude that useful quantities are probably unlikely.<br /><br />(note- I am aware of the deep earth gas hypothesis as a possible explanation for earth's petrochemical content, and am considering its' applicability to Mars, but for the time being, I remain neutral on that portion of this problem)<br /><br /> Interesting topic, you've all done very well.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Yeah, you said there is OIL on Mars, right?

 

[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[jatslo]

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[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[vogon13]

Kerogen, (or a kerogen-like material) a precursor to 'oil', is introduced into the Martian environment from the impact of D-type asteroids.<br /><br />The percentage of D-types among all the asteroids is unknown to me. It has been noted that D-types are more common in the more distant parts of the asteroid belt, but collisions and perturbations should send some towards Mars.<br /><br /><br />Sadly, that material is fated to be quickly decomposed by the hostile Martian environment.<br /><br />I have no information when the last D-type struck Mars, or when the next one is expected to hit. Judging by the very heavily cratered areas on Mars, it must happen at least occaisionally.<br /><br />Would there be enough data to tell if the methane content is decreasing? A sudden spike in the content would imply a recent strike of a D-type impactor (assuming this is all on the right track)<br /><br /><br />Fascinating subject. Enjoy pondering this stuff. <br /><br />Dark spot of Iapetus is believed to be composed of this kerogen like material, too.<br /><br />Maybe even the dark crater bottoms of Hyperion, too.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[vogon13]

don't get yer undies in a knot<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[jatslo]

Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star

 

[jatslo]

Will MARSIS spot OIL deposits, because both water and oil are liquids, and since MARSIS is pinging for liquid water, wouldn't MARSIS detect liquid gold (oil) too?

 

[JonClarke]

Back to the original question I see!<br /><br />I suspect the radar would see liquids, I don't know whether it could be able to differentiate between liquif hydrocarbons and liquid water.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

MARSIS can detect water, but you are stating that MARSIS might think that OIL reserves are Water? If MARSIS comes back and says water reserves, then how do we know that those water reserves are not oil?<br /><br /><br />