Jupiter Venus - baloon probe exploration

[vandivx]

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/jupiter_worldbook.html<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The temperature at the top of Jupiter's clouds is about -230 degrees F (-145 degrees C). Measurements made by ground instruments and spacecraft show that Jupiter's temperature increases with depth below the clouds. The temperature reaches 70 degrees F (21 degrees C) -- "room temperature" -- at a level where the atmospheric pressure is about 10 times as great as it is on Earth. Scientists speculate that if Jupiter has any form of life, the life form would reside at this level. Such life would need to be airborne, because there is no solid surface at this location on Jupiter. Scientists have discovered no evidence for life on Jupiter.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />after reading this I got an idea if it might be feasible to send a probe to Jupiter (and perhaps also to Venus) which would establish itself in orbit and drop a secondary probe in the form of hard shell baloon into the planets atmoshpere where it would float at some elevation and gather data which it would transmit back to Earth via that orbiter above atmosphere.<br /><br />I believe there was a probe 'landing' on Jupiter similar to one landing on Titan except that one on Jupiter got destroyed by pressure/temperature environment. Why parachute in landers when it might be possible to send down a baloon that would stop at some level and just float and move with atmohspere around Jupiter or Venus? Ten atmoshperes should float some spherical hard shelled baloon with some payload or not? I am not any baloonist or any sort of expert over these things at all, is that complete crackpot idea or not?<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ittiz]

Take a look at this paper, it's on topic: http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf

 

[vandivx]

very interesting paper though it reads like sci-fi but for now an unmaned probe would be more realistic, at least for Venus, what is unclear though is the 'insertion' of probe in situ, at least I suspect that's where problems might be<br /><br />Would be interesting to make similar study for Jupiter, not with eye to human habitation but for unmaned space lab, to take into account the force of gravitation at the level where you get room temperatures and 10 atmospheres pressure and see what could be done with that<br /><br />also would have to make study if the scientific gains gotten this way would outweight orbiting probe high above atmosphere, if you couldn't get just about the same data from that space orbit<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Hot air balloon? Or something else?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[qso1]

vanDivX:<br />I believe there was a probe 'landing' on Jupiter similar to one landing on Titan except that one on Jupiter...<br /><br />Me:<br />That would be the probe released by Galileo and sent into Jupiters atmosphere. The probe didn't land because scientists do not know for certain if there is a solid surface to land on. The probe was eventually crushed by atmospheric pressure as planned as it descended deeper into the Jovian atmosphere.<br /><br />More here:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_spacecraft<br /><br />I imagine in the not too distant future, we will send balloon borne probes to Venus and Jupiter which can float at specified altitudes for weeks on end or at least till the balloon deflates. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>That would be the probe released by Galileo and sent into Jupiters atmosphere. The probe didn't land because scientists do not know for certain if there is a solid surface to land on. The probe was eventually crushed by atmospheric pressure as planned as it descended deeper into the Jovian atmosphere. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />yes, that's the one<br /><br />towards the end as I was reading that wikipedia article I was laughing and felt like crying at the same time over the various faults the probe encountered, from the failure of its main antena right at the start of mission to pure luck opening of the descent probe parachute, I sure hope space engineers have learned something from all that <br /><br />I was always wondering if there might be solid surface or how strong gravity would be at the radius it would be located at or what pressure would be found when on that ground<br /><br />ten atmoshperes is not much to deal with, it shouldn't crush the gondola and it should provide decent lifting floating power...<br /><br />the balloon might not have to be some soft balloon as we know them, given the high pressure, it could be some hard shell gondola, it might not even have to be filled with some extra light gas to float in the Jupiter's atmosphere<br />I see problems with that idea when it comes to transporting some such gadget to Jupiter even somehow folded or disassembled unless it could be of such size to fit as payload on launching probe fully assembled, inflatable baloon is more likely to be it even if less durable<br /><br />but I have no idea at all how big it would have to be, from what materials it could be built and so on, if it could be durable enough it could last indefinitely especially if it would be powered by those RTGs that Galileo used<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Excellent & fascinating articles.<br /><br />The one problem with the Jupiter balloon, is that at the one bar level, the 'surface' gravity is 2.64 times that of Earth. Jupiter's gravity is strong enough for Hydrogen & Helium to sink (obviously as Jupiter's atmosphere is dominated by these two).<br /><br />However a heated, Hot 'Air' type contraption would work. The balloon would need to be inflated at a very high altitude (perhaps the upper Stratosphere), the hydrogen would need to be kept hot (on board 'RTG' as to increase bouyancy lower down, & the balloon probe to descend to the required level in Jupiter's atmosphere. It would work, I have no doubt, but extremely difficult.<br /><br />Hydrogen would be fine in Jupiter's atmosphere as there is no Oxygen, hence no risk of fire.<br /><br />I think that the problem with atmosphere bourne creatures in Jupiter's atmosphere is the fact, where would they roost & what would they feed on? <br /><br />On Earth, fair enough we have birds & flying insects, but they are all dependent in one form or another on life on land or in the sea. <br /><br />In Jupiter's case, we have neither, & the Earth does not have cloud dwelling creatures, they need something more substantial than just clouds. <br /><br />Cloud living organisms on Earth would find it easier, simply because of the Earth's lower gravity (Jupiter 2.64 Earth gravities at the 1 Bar level). <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>where would they roost & what would they feed on?<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> ROFL<br /><br />but seriously, they would have to be some floating airborne microbes (or amoebas, whatever, I am no biologist) and feed off some gases, I think that would border on hard core sci-fi though<br /><br />how would gravitation scale with bars? what gravitation would be found at the 10 bar pressure level where likely the roosting creatures would congregate?<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Would RTGs generate enough heat given they are quite heavy compared to power output?<br /><br />Maybe an oxygen fueled aircraft or even a glider is possible?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

vanDivX:<br />but I have no idea at all how big it would have to be, from what materials it could be built and so on, if it could be durable enough it could last indefinitely especially if it would be powered by those RTGs that Galileo used.<br /><br />Me:<br />I'm not sure either. By the time we can send a balloon borne payload to Jupiter, we may have better materials, and a better understanding of the Jovian atmosphere as there may be a couple more Galileo follow on missions in the years to come. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

In reply to:<br /><br />"Would RTGs generate enough heat given they are quite heavy compared to power output? <br /><br />Maybe an oxygen fueled aircraft or even a glider is possible? <br /><br />Jon"<br /><br />And:<br /><br />"vanDivX: <br />but I have no idea at all how big it would have to be, from what materials it could be built and so on, if it could be durable enough it could last indefinitely especially if it would be powered by those RTGs that Galileo used." <br /><br />And:<br /><br />"Me (qso1): <br />I'm not sure either. By the time we can send a balloon borne payload to Jupiter, we may have better materials, and a better understanding of the Jovian atmosphere as there may be a couple more Galileo follow on missions in the years to come. "<br /><br />My own assessment of the highly intelligent points raised above:<br /><br />You both raise good points. The RTGs that the Galileo & Voyager spacecraft used would last for decades (Pioneers 10 & 11, Voyagers 1 & 2, Ulysses & Cassini, being prime examples). With more energy efficient, smaller, electronics & lighter composite materials that will almost certainly appear, I think a RTG heated Jovian balloon is 100% possible. <br /><br />An Oxygen fuelled aircraft would be superb. Imagine the control that would be possible. A balloon is at the mercy of the winds, so not really so controllable. <br /><br />However Balloons & powered aircraft, I think could be used together to investigate different Jovian atmospheric & weather phenomena. <br /><br />A glider, I think would not really work, given Jupiter's extremely violent weather. I might be wrong!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

there should be some scouting mission first that would drop a number of smaller balloon probes with destination to various altitudes to get the idea what can be expected in preparation for sending in some bigger balloon with next misson, it could still turn out that many small balloons rather than one big one would be better way, that all depends <br /><br />as to getting around different places in atmosphere, it would depend if the aircurrents would move passive balloon around in some significant way so that it would visit places beyond where it would be intially dropped... <br /><br />I don't think a ballon would move around too much, I mean if you dropped it over the red spot, that would be where it would stay more or less for ever moving with it around planet, for one thing that spot is so huge like everything there and the mere fact that it is there for centuries means there are no global aircurrents that would carry a balloon across it and outside, else the spot might have dispersed long ago, also there is not much hope that any balloon would change lattitude much since the overall atmosphere moves in those quite well defined 'strips' around the planet and balloon would almost certainly stay inside the strip you dropped it into<br />best choice might be to drop many smaller ballons in various areas <br /><br />perhaps they could be controlled somewhat by changing their elevation to seek out different layers of aircurrents but that still wouldn't take them too far very likely, then again there might be value in having a probe monitoring single area for a whole Jupiter year to see how things change during that time, it all depends what experts would deem is of value and that would determine if we should have many small probes or just one bigger but better equipped, perhaps the environment will make the decision for us - like small balloons might not be feasible at all as you might have to have a bigger volume to keep afloat at the altitude desired, as they say it all <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

3488:<br />With more energy efficient, smaller, electronics & lighter composite materials that will almost certainly appear, I think a RTG heated Jovian balloon is 100% possible.<br /><br />Me:<br />I agree and since its largely just a question of properly designing and engineering such a craft. I see no reason not to go RTG for power. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

vanDivX:<br />there should be some scouting mission first that would drop a number of smaller balloon probes with destination to various altitudes to get the idea what can be expected in preparation for sending in some bigger balloon...<br /><br />Me:<br />Thats a logical approach and one NASA would most likely take. Could even be a combo mission, small balloons and a couple of larger ones.<br /><br />vanDivX:<br />atmosphere borne probes definitely would seem to be the next step in exploration of these two planets that otherwise don't offer any or hardly any hope for extended surface landed missions...<br /><br />Me:<br />It may be possible to have a somewhat longer stay on Venus if future materials advances allow for a lander to have its vital equipment enclosed from the extreme heat and pressure. Jupiter not having a known surface will probably only be explorable with balloon or glider type probes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

You may want to look up the Soviet Vega 1 and Vega 2 probes which explored Venus' in 1986. Both missions were incredible in engineering, and very successful.<br /><br />These are some highlights of the Vega missions:<br />1. First close images ever of a comet nucleus (Comets Giotto and Halley) taken as the probes neared Venus.<br />2. Each probe carried a lander which successfully decended to the surface and took pictures and gathered data.<br />3. Each probe had a balloon tethered instrumentation package which floated in the Venusian atmosphere for weeks, making weather and gas composition measurements.<br /><br />Vega <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[qso1]

And the Venera landers, I forgot about those missions, thanks silylene. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Thanks silylene. I forgot about the Soviet Union VEGA Venus balloons. They were a HUGE success.<br /><br />qso1 is correct. With proper engineering (not cost cutting) a Jupiter atmospheric balloon would last for years. <br /><br />Also why stop at Venus & Jupiter? What about Balloons & Oxygen fuelled aircraft exploring Saturn, Titan, Uranus & Neptune too??? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

3488:<br />What about Balloons & Oxygen fuelled aircraft exploring Saturn, Titan, Uranus & Neptune too???<br /><br />Me:<br />Sounds good to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

that was a good readup, I remember now that pic from Venus ground probe I have seen a while back<br /><br />obviously then balloons are possible and those in position of putting together missions would know about that possibility yet none are being sent out to those planets, beats me really, why would you drop that probe on Jupiter to certain meltdown if you could have had something floating for at least some decent time, I can see that on Titan where surface was expected (and we wanted to see it) but what could you expect on Jupiter but certain meltdown<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

Its the step by step process that is used by NASA to the extent practical.<br /><br />The first Jupiter probes were flybys, then Galileo goes into Jupiter orbit but has only enough payload capacity for a small entry probe and one that it was known from the getgo that it would last maybe an hour. Balloon borne payloads would be heavier than a simple descent probe. The probe got just enough data to justify it and Galileo got much more in case the probe failed. Lack of specific knowledge of Jupiters atmosphere played a role as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

after reading up on Venera and Vega probes I am astonished at what seems relative to today almost hyperactivity of sending probes out in those days, those way true pioneering days of space exploration and its too bad it didn't last at the rate it used to be<br /><br />Russians were really plucky chaps, so many 'firsts' that they managed and with relatively primitive technology compared to today's<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega_program<br /><br />were those the first and last pictures we have of Venus surface taken from its surface?<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

What I find rather interesting is that the Russians did Venus pretty well, but Mars was another story. They have yet to successfully land an unmanned probe on Mars. They were the first to land an unmanned probe on Mars back in 1971 or 73 IIRC. But they lost contact less than a minute after it landed.<br /><br />The Venera Venus images are the only ones I recall ever seeing. I remember the Vega mission but never saw images that were specifically credited to it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/group_page/VN.html<br /><br />Try this. Soviet Venera surface images of Venus, as well as other Venus clobber (Magellan, etc). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Thanks, great link. I didn't see any Vega images mentioned. I don't recall what Vega actually did at Venus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Tell me about vega mission in a nutshell.