Just how fast can an STS orbiter be turned around?

[willpittenger]

Scenario:<br /><br />Atlantis has been retired when a Columbia-type accident strands an orbiter in orbit. If the other orbiter had just landed at Kennedy, how quickly could we turn it around and launch it again? I am guessing that since the orbiter only can carry 7 and that many might be on board the stranded orbiter, multiple trips might be required if the ISS lifeboat is unavailable (because the stranded orbiter could not reach ISS) or might be needed for the ISS crew. Hence, the orbiter on the ground must be rushed into not one, but two emergency launches.<br /><br />Is that doable? How would you get seven stranded crew members home? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[norm103]

i think its 180 on avers and the resque shuttle would talk all 7 making 11 ppl on the shuttle

 

[qso1]

willpittenger:<br />Atlantis has been retired when a Columbia-type accident strands an orbiter in orbit. If the other orbiter had just landed at Kennedy, how quickly could we turn it around and launch it again?<br /><br />Me:<br />On average, the turnaround is a minimum of a month to six weeks. For a rescue mission, the turnaround could be shortened if required because many of the normal preflight checkouts associated with payloads that have nothing to do with rescues could be eliminated. Add to that if the situation is the least bit critical, as in 7 stranded people draining ISS supplies at a rate that will eliminate those supplies before the next Progress flight, the rescue crew would only need to be CDR and PLT.<br /><br />The two crew rescue would be even more applicable in a situation where an orbiter is stranded away from ISS because the rescue mission would not leave anyone aboard a stranded orbiter due to the turn around required for a second orbiter to retreive them.<br /><br />Bottom line, probably minimum 4 week turnaround for orbiter just landed but possibly as much as a week to ten days shorter. Rescue crew of 2. The rescue orbiter could support 9 for a short duration rescue type flight. One mission in 1985 (SLD-1) actually carried the record shuttle flight crew of 8. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[subzero788]

"Rescue crew of 2"<br /><br />The rescue shuttle will carry 4 crew. Don't know why they require 4 rather than 2 or 3 (maybe s_g or someone can explain why?)

 

[qso1]

The reason I say 2 is that 2 minimum would be required for example, a rescue from ISS in which no medical situations that would require a medic and any associated medical gear. In a nominal rescue mission, due to the fact you have to rescue 7 people, the rescue orbiter crew accomodations on the mid deck would be hard pressed just to safely seat the crew of 9 for re-entry and the orbiter only needs 2 to fly it and the 7 being rescued can move around/seat themselves, no need for assistance beyond what the CDR or PLT might provide.<br /><br />If some situation has compromised the crew being rescued, then a larger rescue crew would be required. I'm sure S_G can provide a better answer but until he does, this is all thats available at this hour. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

As I see it, the rescue orbiter needs at least 2 crew members. You need more if the rescue Commander needs mission specialist to help those from the stranded shuttle board.<br /><br />Furthermore, you can not simply expect everyone to float around happily in the rescue orbiter. During landing, everyone needs to be buckled into a seat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

So how many seats can you get into an orbiter? I figure the max for the flight deck is the Commander, pilot, and two specialist seats. You normally have 3 people below with, presumably, some gear. Remember, it is easier to let 9 or 11 people float around in there (all in the mid-deck) than to accommodate just 4 during landing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

It appears NASA has a rescue mission actually planned for this Julys Discovery mission and the crew size is 4.<br /><br />http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/06/19/astronaut_set_to_launch_for_first_time<br /><br />http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ap_rtf_sts121_rescue_050321.html<br /><br />The mission if required, would launch 30 days later for what I refer to as a nominal rescue. That is, a rescue of an uncompromised crew. I'm not sure why 4 rescuers are needed, I didn't get a chance to read the links I posted. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

STS-300 lower deck seating.

 

[mcs_seattle]

If the center of mass must be so accurate for the shuttle to have a safe reentryt (I think you once said it has to be within a circle of four inches), what options does the shuttle have for adjusting the center of mass while in orbit?

 

[brandbll]

Wait, you don't even have to be strapped in when your landing in the shuttle!?!?!?!? That must be one hell of a smooth ride. Do they have something to hold onto instead? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="3">You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard!</font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

So they can stack the seats? (They look more like benches to me.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

What does the flight engineer do? (Columbia's first few flights had only two crew members.) Also, what responsibilities would the 4th crew member have on such a flight? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Somewhere, probably in one of the articles that Qso posted, it was mentioned that the if Discovery was disabled in the next mission, it would be pushed into the ocean to make room for Atlantis at ISS. However, it would not be that simple. I have to believe that it can be told to make a series of burns remotely. Could it attempt to land unmanned -- like the Russian Buran missions? That way, if the damage was not fatal after all, it could still be used (or at least shown in Museums). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[nacnud]

As of the next launch then yes an attempt could be made to make an uncrewed landing. Alot depends on how damaged the vehicle is though.

 

[willpittenger]

And a return trajectory that maximizes the time over water in case it does break up. Columbia spewed hazardous materials over several states. (That trajectory though does make it harder to recover debris.)<br /><br />That is somewhat eased if the landing is set up at Edwards. How long could an unmanned orbiter remain in orbit waiting for a window with good weather to arrive? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[nacnud]

I imagin the time on orbit would be very similar with or without crew.

 

[willpittenger]

Except you have no evironmental concerns. You only need to deal with power, fuel, and unused water created by the fuel cells. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

shuttle_guy:<br />You forgot the minimun VAB/Pad flow of 4 weeks.<br /><br />Me:<br />Is there a hard minimum time?<br /><br />My assumption initially was that some of the procedures that normally involve a month long VAB/pad flow would be "Not performed". The links I posted IIRC alluded to this as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Not even unusual stuff? We are now being told to be buckled in at all times by United and other airlines. I would expect the shuttle to provide more of that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Cables? Not in the computer? I figured you would just activate some sort of autopilot. I say that as I remember reports noting Young performed a manual landing on the first flight. Does someone know how Buran was controlled during reentry? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

Thanks for the turnaround time info, that kind of shows a rescue mission would be difficult but not impossible to pull off so long as one of the orbiters are ready. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Cables? Not in the computer?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I believe the computer has no physical connection to the landing gear controls -- without hardware mods, it is physically impossible for the computer to drop the gear, which means a successful unmanned landing is impossible. So that's what he's referring to with the cables. I suspect it wouldn't be a particularly complicated mod.<br /><br />I seem to recall that the Orbiter computers also need some manual intervention to load software. That may also need changing in order to permit the remote loading of new software during flight. (This is important; the Orbiters load new software before each landing attempt. The new software contains the updated flight plan, which is dependent upon the choice of landing site and time.) I don't know whether a hardware mod would be needed to permit entirely remote software loading. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[bushuser]

Is there a provision for powering some shuttle systems from the ISS? <br /> I would think after 2-3 weeks of being docked at the station, you would run out of fuel for fuel cells, and the thing would become a large icebox as the toilet/shower/galley failed. You can certainly resupply with a Progress launch, but 9 folks are going to be pressed to deal with their basic human needs for 3 months in the safe haven scenario. <br />If the power systems are compatible, it would be good to be able to 'plug in" the shuttle to ISS and have some systems available

 

[willpittenger]

What does that have to do with my quote? Did you think you were replying to another thread? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>