Just want to know

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abhinavkumar_iitr05

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Will anyone help me by helping me in solving a problem related to Black Hole.<br />My problem is that we all say that nothing can escape from the black hole not even the light.Then how is that we r able to detect its gravitational effect the particle Graviton itself can't escape from the black hole?Is this mean that graviton have speed greater than speed of light
 
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dougum3882

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As far as I know, gravitons are theorized to travel at the speed of light. I am not sure how gravitons fit into the theory of gravity exactly as far as thinking of gravity as curving or warping space, but if I had to take a guess, I would think that the gravitons which are past the event horizon can't exert a gravitational effect on objects around the blackhole, but the gravitons just outside the event horizon (where space is still curved due to the blackhole) can exert a gravitational force on the objects around the blackhole. So the gravitons from a blackhole are the ones which have not yet crossed the event horizon. Again, only a guess.
 
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nexium

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I don't think gravatons have been detected, so they may not exist, or we may have guessed wrong about gravitons. Gravity may propagate faster than light. Experts don't agree. There is also considerable doubt about black holes. Neil
 
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scull

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Weren't M-87 and NGC-4258 black holes seen by the Hubble Space Telescope and the Very Large Array Radio Telescope?<br />
 
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nexium

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You can't see a black hole. You can see evidence of the acreation disk of a black hole, but nuetron stars also have accreation disks and can produce lensing of the stars behind the gravity well. My guess black holes are more certain than gravitons, but a lot of things in astronomy are more hypothesis than theory, by standards of some of the other sciences. Neil
 
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scull

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Yes, I guess "see" is the wrong verb to use since black holes do not give off light and therefore cannot be photographed directly. The pictures taken by the Hubble Space Telescope were of swirls of matter being drawn down into the hubs of M87 and NGC4258.<br />
 
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abhinavkumar_iitr05

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Answering to ur questoin that <br /><br /><br />"How gravitons fit into the theory of gravity exactly as far as thinking of gravity as curving or warping space"<br /><br />what I would like to say is that let us assume any change in the gravitational effect of any body due to the addition of any mass just created from the energy then the curvature of space & time will travel at a certain speed & it will take certain time for the information to reach the long of distance.Now to explain how this effect is transferred from body to long of distance the concept of graviton was framed just as the concept of photon which has been proved true.Who Knows ExistanceOf Graviton Would Be Proved True In Future.<br /><br />Now I would also at the same time like to ask u about ur guess that <br /><br />"The gravitons from a blackhole are the ones which have not yet crossed the event horizon".<br /><br />What I like to ask is that if it is only the graviton from outside the Event Horizon are the carrier of the information of the gravity then <br /><br />How can we say that it is a BLACK HOLE?How can we come to know that light can't escape from the body producing the graviton detected?
 
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abhinavkumar_iitr05

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Hello nexium!<br />I totally agree with u that GRAVITONS r not till detected but it doesn't negate their existance.The same was the concept before the experimental proof of the photons.And yes don't forget that even photons can't travel with speed greater than light.<br /><br />Here I am mentioning an experiment which may be in future be used to show the speed of propagation of the gravity waves.<br /><br />We can convert mass into energy right!Also we can measure the gravity effect of any particle.Now to detect the speed of gravitational waves what can be done is that we can convert any mass into energy and measure the time that will cause the change of the effect of the particle into energy at a certain distance.<br /><br />The biggest problem with this is that Gravitational Forces r vrey weak forces and we can't convert a bulk of mass to energy.Also there exist the disturbances from the other masses.So a very precise experiment is to be done.<br /><br />Anyway its only one of the many ideas which can be thought
 
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dougum3882

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I would guess that space just outside the event horizon is still quite curved, just not enough to trap anything (inlcuding light) that comes near it. And so we can still infer a blackhole is there because detect stars orbiting at very high speeds just outside the event horizon which could only be orbiting at those speeds because of a blackhole.
 
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harmonicaman

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This article brings up the interesting concept of "Fossil Gravity" in regards to the propagation of gravity from a Black Hole.<br /><br />Since the "m" falling into a Black Hole passes beyond time, other factors must explain how a BH can maintain its gravitational influence on the surrounding space. <br /><br />
 
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newtonian

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harmonicaman - That is based on extrapolations using the theory of relativity - which may not apply in exactly the same way when light speed is reached or exceeded in a black hole.<br /><br />Compare, for example, tachyons or FTL expansion in inflation theories.<br /><br />I submit that FTL is possible, but it may require conversion to a different type of matter which still exerts gravity.<br /><br />Would a tachyon exert gravity?<br /><br />Certainly dark matter exerts gravity.<br /><br />I also submit that matter is really existing inside a black hole in some form that propagates gravity during time.<br /><br />What I submit is an educated guess, not dogma.
 
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newtonian

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scull - Hi!<br /><br />Yes, it is interesting that invisible things can be 'seen' by their effects.<br /><br />Proof of existence by cause and effect! <br /><br />Phonetic pun: holey (= holy) effects!
 
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aorton27

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"My problem is that we all say that nothing can escape from the black hole not even the light.Then how is that we r able to detect its gravitational effect"<br /><br />Because the fabric of time and space is bent in all directions outside of the hole and not just directly at it but long distances from it as well. The bent space bends the light going into it as the light travels along the "threads" of time.<br /><br />The envelope of gravity is shaped like a trumpet and flares out if you were to look at it in a 2d cross cut view where in reality it would be in 4 dimensions like a under water, floating drain.
 
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aorton27

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Ottometric, Ottometer or Ottotech<br /><br />I found a interesting web article that mentions it at;<br />http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/essays/femtotech.html<br /><br /><br />"I read in my particle physics books at home, that the smallest scale that humanity knows about EXPERIMENTALLY is at the ottometer level (10^-18 m), i.e. at quark and gluon scale, although if you dont restrict yourself to experimental observations and look at the latest THEORIES, then with superstrings, you are talking about 10^-33 m. Since the energy levels needed to observe beyond the ottometer are prohibitively high, I will restrict my enquiries for the moment to the possibility of a femtotech and maybe an ottotech. What phenomena might serve as the basis for an ottotech? If theorists can deduce how to manufacture a universe (e.g. Guth at MIT), then theorists can think about femto and otto techs. If (post)humanity could manipulate superstrings at 10^-33m, what tech would that be? Plancktech? Stringtech?"<br /><br />Smaller is better. If we can design and build at these insane levels like we are starting to with nano-technology we will have the ability to design atoms themselves. We may be able to design and build (in zero gravity of space) objects more dense than matter on a nuetron star and use such matter as propulsion to near light speed or beyond since gravity can pull/push things faster than light as a blackhole proves.
 
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newtonian

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aorton27 - OK, clearly outside the box, which is fine with me.<br /><br />Planck length, according to wikipedia.com, is 1.61624(12) x 10^-35 meter.<br /><br />When God created the heavens in a radius close to Planck length (perhaps smaller) and fine tuned the laws and properties of our universe in a virtual instant of time, including the ratios and values of the 4 forces of physics, etc., clearly this is even beyond 'ottometric' technology.<br /><br />As we are created in God's image, we certainly should scientifically try to manipulate intelligently things in such small spaces and short time increments.<br /><br />That is part of our scientific inquisitiveness (curiousity, desire to learn).<br /><br />Of course, with all due caution in view of what happenned at the origin of our universe in such a small space and time!
 
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aorton27

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When God created the heavens in a radius close to Planck length (perhaps smaller) and fine tuned the laws and properties of our universe in a virtual instant of time, including the ratios and values of the 4 forces of physics, etc., clearly this is even beyond 'ottometric' technology."<br /><br />For all we know humans could of been transported to earth by UFO's or maybe in the same comet that killed off the dinosaurs. Who every brought us here could be our gods, our creators, who knows. Maybe they created out universe because they mastered what ever scientific study in their universe. Maybe man will do that in the future and be someone else god?<br /><br />I feel there are countless universes, not just one. Did that one god create them all? No , because it is possible for "god's creations' to create their own.<br />So is it possible that god didn't create ours? Yes<br />Is is possible there is no god? Yes<br />Is it possible there is a god? Yes<br /><br />Going to believe a book that has no scientific truth or reasoning? NO!
 
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newtonian

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aorton27 - So, I take it you don't use cook books?<br /><br />Seriously, the Bible does have scientific truth and reasoning and was way ahead of its time.<br /><br />This is off thread theme so I will just state a few examples for now:<br /><br />1. Earth is hung upon nothing, contrary to popular belief it was on something (Atlas, turtle, etc.):<br /><br />[written 1513 BCE] (Job 26:7) 7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing;<br /><br />2. Earth is round, not other shapes commonly believed:<br />[written 732 BCE] (Isaiah 40:22) . . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze,. . .<br /><br />3. The stretching out of our universe, aka expansion - see the latter verse.<br /><br />4. Earth and heaven had a beginning, contrary to eternal universe theories such as Aristotle’s model and Steady State theory:<br /><br />[1513 BCE](Genesis 1:1) 1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.<br /><br />5. Earth’s winds are circular cycles:<br /><br />(Ecclesiastes 1:6) . . .The wind is going to the south, and it is circling around to the north. Round and round it is continually circling, and right back to its circlings the wind is returning.<br /><br />[Note that earth’s vertical and horizontal wind circling all share a north and south component; I.e. compare north east south west to south up north down]<br /><br />There are many other examples, btw - believe it or not.
 
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newtonian

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Science is often a matter of interpretation.<br /><br />The key is that no accurate observation, and no Scripture, actually contradicts. <br /><br />Wrong interpretations make observations and Scriptures appear to contradict.<br /><br />Both Galileo and Newton went against popular interpretations of the Bible and of science - but both also believed the Bible to be God's Word and were fascinated by science - their motive was search for truth.<br /><br />That is also my motive, btw.<br /><br />In fact, Newton wrote more on the Bible than on science.
 
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abhinavkumar_iitr05

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You r right in dealing with the problem of the experience of the gravity of the black hole by considering the curve nature of space & time in the presence of black hole.But again I would like to ask that how the increase in the gravitational effect is carried out from the black hole as due to the highly curve nature of space & time the flow of time is almost zero inside the event horizon & in this case though the information can escape from the black hole but it will take an infinite time to reach the outer space.How can we account for the ever increasing effect of the gravitation of the BH due to the continuous inflow of the matter inside the black hole.<br /><br />I would also like to ask who is the carrier of the information from the black hole to the outer universe?Is it something called Graviton?
 
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