LCROSS Lunar South Polar Cabeus Crater impact Mission

[3488]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Thank you so very much shuttle_guy for your update.

I will be here & tuned in (hopefully)

It is superb news that LCROSS has been taken off 'Special Measures' following the malfunction & excessive fuel usage due to said malfunction.

I can't wait to find out which is the chosen crater. I suspect it is not Shackleton Crater as that appears to have been ruled out as to containing volatiles based on the JAXA Kaguya / Selene observations.

I still think LCROSS will impact dry, but cryonically cold regolith & we should get some interesting minerological data in the plume. We'll see.

Once again, thank you very much shuttle_guy.

10:00 AM PDT / 11:00 AM MDT / 12:00 PM CDT / 1:00 PM EDT / 5:00 PM UTC (GMT) / 6:00 PM CET (BST).

Impact of LCROSS (hopefully) on: Friday 9th October 2009.

29 Days.
15 Hours.
15 Minutes.
15 Seconds.

Andrew Brown.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

NASA's LCROSS Reveals Target Crater For Lunar South Pole Impacts MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. – NASA has selected a final destination for its Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite, or LCROSS, after a journey of nearly 5.6 million miles that included several orbits around Earth and the moon. The mission team announced Wednesday that Cabeus A will be the target crater for the LCROSS dual impacts scheduled for 7:30 a.m. EDT on Oct. 9, 2009. The crater was selected after an extensive review as the optimal location for LCROSS' evaluation of whether water ice exists at the lunar south pole.


http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/se ... ction.html

LCROSS will search for water ice by sending its spent upper-stage Centaur rocket to impact the permanently shadowed polar crater. The satellite will fly into the plume of dust left by the impact and measure the properties before also colliding with the lunar surface. The LCROSS team selected Cabeus A based on a set of conditions that include proper debris plume illumination for visibility from Earth, a high concentration of hydrogen, and mature crater features such as a flat floor, gentle slopes and the absence of large boulders.

"The selection of Cabeus A was a result of a vigorous debate within the lunar science community that included review of the latest data from Earth-based observatories and our fellow lunar missions Kaguya, Chandrayaan-1, and the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter," said Anthony Colaprete, LCROSS project scientist and principle investigator at NASA’s Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. "The team is looking forward to the impacts and the wealth of information this unique mission will produce."

Edit: During the News Conference it was mentioned that this was the target they had originally planned for, and this, as well as the performance of the spacecraft, despite the propellant consuming anomoly, has allowed the first 3 TCMs (Trajectory Correction Maneuvers) to be cancelled. One of these came after the anomoly. SO at this point they have enough propellant to complete the mission with some margin for future problems.

The target they are aiming for is about 3 km in diameter.

 

[3488]

LRO Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Mission.

Thank you very much Wayne,

I am still having computer problems & NASA TV crashed my computer, so I could not watch the announcement.

Cabeus A Crater, Earth based S Band RADAR image. Much of the terrain shown here is in permanent darkness. I still say LCROSS is going to hit cryonically cold but ice free dry regolith.

Andrew Brown.

 

[kelvinzero]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Well if we dont find water, at least google moon will be awesome!

 

[Gravity_Ray]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

The results I see so far dont sound so good for a moon base to me unless I am missing something here. First of I dont want to split hairs, but they have NOT found water ice, but only hydrogen traps with hydrogen in them. OK so in what form is that hydrogen? What is it bound to? I think it probably will not be in the form of water ice, because this hydrogen is also found in places that are NOT permanantly shadowed, so this probably means no water ice.

The floor of these craters are also very rough! This data makes it look more like the land scape from Armageddon than the smooth floor in 2001, so what ever form the hydrogen is in, will be very hard to "mine". Also the best cold traps are not close to shackelton crater where the sun shine is the best.

So you have to build your base far from the source of the hydrogen over very rough terrain, and your not even sure if the hydrogen can be "mined" easily.

Not sure if a moon base is feasable with the data so far. Hopefully as the maps improve a way can be found around these.

 

[3488]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Hi Gravity Ray.

You are not splitting hairs, at least not with me anyway. I too am sceptical of lunar ice & I have said before that I think LCROSS will slam into cryonically cold, but volatile free lunar regolith.

My doubts are founded on the facts that:

1) I think the moon has different polar points now than in the remote past, in fact I think the moon has tilted back with the old north pole over on the far side in he northern hemisphere, with the old south pole in the southern hemisphere on the near side, some way south of Tycho Crater.

Reasoning being, I think the lanar nearside maria & the far side basins mark the Moon's original equator, & since then, the moon has been rocked backwards on it's axis. Also a while back, there was an article speculating that Mare Crisium was once near the centre of the Earth facing side. That too agrees with my thinking.

Either way, the now permanently shadowed regions at one time received full sunlight & the former shadowed area now receive sunlight.

2). Impacting comets surely would be vapourised, with volatiles being driven off in the process, rather than get trapped.

3). Hydrogen from the Sun sweeping overy the Moon's cold traps will likely cool down & slow down over the cold traps giving a false impression of water ice.

I think LCROSS though will still provide a unique valuable data set that we could get no other way. The Moon Base I could not care any less about right now, the science from this mission though IMO is more relevent & exciting.

Andrew Brown.

 

[scottb50]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

The results I see so far dont sound so good for a moon base to me unless I am missing something here. First of I dont want to split hairs, but they have NOT found water ice, but only hydrogen traps with hydrogen in them. OK so in what form is that hydrogen? What is it bound to? I think it probably will not be in the form of water ice, because this hydrogen is also found in places that are NOT permanantly shadowed, so this probably means no water ice.

The floor of these craters are also very rough! This data makes it look more like the land scape from Armageddon than the smooth floor in 2001, so what ever form the hydrogen is in, will be very hard to "mine". Also the best cold traps are not close to shackelton crater where the sun shine is the best.

So you have to build your base far from the source of the hydrogen over very rough terrain, and your not even sure if the hydrogen can be "mined" easily.

Not sure if a moon base is feasable with the data so far. Hopefully as the maps improve a way can be found around these.

I would suspect water, if anything in the craters, extremely cold and hard water. Hydogen boils at -423.17 degrees, so any straight Hydrogen would be pretty limited. I also doubt the water, or more likely, compacted frost attracted from the local environment. The same way the moons of Jupiter and Saturn have atmospheres, they're a little warmer .

I would think water, especially in the well protected crater is a very good possibility. How much is the next question and can we get to it and find a use for it are a couple of other questions. The biggest problem with using the moon is it takes almost the same amount of energy to get to the moon as anywhere else. It makes more sense to transport water from the moon to LEO and assemble further reaching vehicles, but probable not before we have such a need. We can easily use, and afford to use our existing water, a resource on the moon, as well as one on Mars or even an asteroid might be cheaper, it could turn into a contest to build a bigger and dumber launcher to get more water to LEO.

The ISS has and is, showing us a manned presence in Space is extremely possible. It only makes sense to start there and build outward. The next room on the ISS could be any of the available containers. Offer a ride to orbit and back and a week on the ISS for a few million dollars. Once attached you could take up various passengers in Soyus or Dragon, even the suborbital Virgin is touting big dollars.

 

[Smersh]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Indian spacecraft seems to have detected water on the moon

 

[SpaceXFanMobius57]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

This is what it looks like Sept. 28, 2009. 5.58 pm est

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

NASA's LCROSS Mission Changes Impact Crater
Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:26:48 PM EDT


MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. -- NASA's Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite mission (LCROSS) based on new analysis of available lunar data, has shifted the target crater from Cabeus A to Cabeus (proper).

The decision was based on continued evaluation of all available data and consultation/input from members of the LCROSS Science Team and the scientific community, including impact experts, ground and space based observers, and observations from Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), Lunar Prospector (LP), Chandrayaan-1 and JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft. This decision was prompted by the current best understanding of hydrogen concentrations in the Cabeus region, including cross-correlation between the latest LRO results and LP data sets.

The general consensus of lunar experts led by the LCROSS science team is that Cabeus shows, with the greatest level of certainty, the highest hydrogen concentrations at the south pole. Further consideration of the most current terrain models provided by JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft and the LRO Lunar Orbiter Laser Altimeter (LOLA) was important in the decision process.The models show a small valley in an otherwise tall Cabeus perimeter ridge, which will allow for sunlight to illuminate the ejecta cloud on Oct. 9, and much sooner than previously estimated for Cabeus. While the ejecta does have to fly to higher elevations to be observed by Earth assets, a shadow cast by a large hill along the Cabeus ridge, provides an excellent, high-contrast, back drop for ejecta and vapor measurements.

The LCROSS team concluded that Cabeus provided the best chance for meeting its mission goals. The team critically assessed and successfully advocated for the change with the Lunar Precursor Robotic Program (LPRP) office. The change in impact crater was factored into LCROSS' most recent Trajectory Correction Maneuver, TCM7.

During the last days of the mission, the LCROSS team will continue to refine the exact point of impact within Cabeus crater to avoid rough spots, and to maximize solar illumination of the debris plume and Earth observations.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Here's a few links with more info for the impact morning about 10 days away.

http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation/amateur.htm

http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation.htm

 

[nimbus]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Does anyone know if and where video of the impact will be broadcasted live or after the impact?

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Yes, NASA TV will cover it live, and if you look through some of the links I've provided there will be earlier Webcasts, I believe. IIRC, NASA TV coverage starts at 3:30 AM EDT, about 4 hours before impact.

 

[nimbus]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

I somehow don't see where it gives that info on those pages. I'll watch it on NasaTV. Thanks Wayne.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Well you have to do a little work to drill down to that info.

When I run across any details, I'll be sure to post it here.

NASA TV
Watch from the comfort of your living room. Live coverage of the LCROSS impacts begins at 3:30 a.m. PDT on Oct. 9.
(That's 6:30 AM EDT, 10:30 AM UTC/GMT)

Wayne

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

There's a pre impact News Conference on NASA TV tomorrow (Thursday) at 1 PM EDT.

Here's the info for impact morning, they've moved up the start of the NASA TV coverage by 15 minutes:


LCROSS Lunar Impact
7:31 a.m. EDT/4:31 a.m. PDT
Friday Oct. 9

A live NASA TV Broadcast is planned for the LCROSS impacts starting at 6:15 a.m. EDT/3:15 a.m. PDT, Oct. 9, on NASA TV and http://www.nasa.gov/ntv.

The 1.5 hour broadcast includes:
Live footage from spacecraft camera Real-time telemetry based animation Views of LCROSS Mission and Science Operations Broadcast commentary with expert guests Prepared video segments Views of the public impact viewing event at NASA Ames Possible live footage from the University of Hawaii, 88-inch telescope on Mauna Kea. The live LCROSS Post-Impact News Conference will be 10 a.m. EDT/7 a.m. PDT on NASA TV and http://www.nasa.gov/ntv.

 

[MarkStanaway]

LRO Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Mission.

Well I just watched the live coverage and never saw a damned thing!! Not even a flash.
Lets hope the suite of spacecraft and telescopes watching this event saw something.
I look forward to to forthcomming reports.

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Well I just watched the live coverage and never saw a damned thing!! Not even a flash.

Me neither :?

 

[ilikemyname]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

I set up my 6" refractor, and saw nothing at all. But I have to tell you, when it hit 6:31(central time), my heart was pumping. Very exciting to think you'd see a dust explosion in real time, so I had some fun anyway. I guess there was not much dust thrown up. That's all we know so far. I wonder if Hubble or Keck got anything out of that???

 

[Zipi]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Here is the Youtube video of the live transmission:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FHgrIuJUh8[/youtube]

 

[MeteorWayne]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

I think I did see a 1 pixel flash in the IR (Blue and Green image), a 1 pixel red flash. Not sure if it was the impact, or a data bit glitch. New conference is underway.

 

[Booban]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

At 6:07 I think I saw it. Didn't look like a glitch.

 

[jakethesnake]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Here is some info I found... Keck astronomers did see a brightening in the spectroscopic readings.

Plus Hubble will rease it's finding later today.

By Science News:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... ious_plume

Keck astronomers did see a brightening in the spectroscopic readings, indicating that Keck recorded the plume. The astronomers will not know about water vapor, as that data will take a little longer to analyze.

Astronomers using the 5-meter Hale Telescope at Palomar Observatory near San Diego also saw no plume. By comparison, when the Japan Space Agency’s lunar-orbiting Kaguya spacecraft was deliberately crashed into the unlit side of the moon in June, a 4-meter ground-based-telescope could see it. The LCROSS rocket booster weighed about two tons and might have made a smaller impact than the three-ton Kaguya did.

Heldmann confirmed that the Hubble Space Telescope, looking not directly at the crater site but off to one side of the moon, had recorded images and spectra of the one-two punch into Cabeus. Images from Hubble should be transmitted to Earth around noon October 9, and spectra about 3 pm. Both are expected to be released by the end of the day.

 

[kelvinzero]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

I was confused by one bit: Why was the hubble looking off to one side of the moon instead of directly at the crater, and how could it see anything there?

Do they mean they were looking at the volume that the plume was expected to occupy? Not having any of the moon itself in the lens would presumably help prevent it blotting out any other light source.

 

[nimbus]

Re: LRO/LCROSS Mission

Someone in the conf. said that the moon was too bright for Hubble, as well as that Hubble only used spectrographic instruments.