Mars Water Debate Rages (archival thread reposting #4)

[serak_the_preparer]

exoscientist<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/12/03 02:38 AM<br /><br />Snowpack Temperature and Tensile Strength<br />R. S. Rosso<br />TSI, Incorporated, 356 South West Temple, Salt Lake City, Utah 84115; tel. 801-262-0651; fax. 801-262-0942; email. steve@holix.com<br />D. Howlett and S. Calhoun<br />"In an effort to understand post-control and other natural avalanches that occur shortly after rain begins or the sun's rays start to warm the starting zone, several experiments were conducted. The use of inexpensive, commercially available data-loggers for in-situ temperature data acquisition and recording is presented along with the results of several temperature tests. By monitoring the snowpack temperature at various depths we found warming from the sun to reach as deep as 50 cm within hours after the sun's rays reached the slope. At shallower depths the sun's radiation warmed the snowpack (not just the surface) to temperatures well above the air temperature. Under conditions artificially created to simulate rain, the snowpack temperature was found to increase at depths of as much as 20 cm as the rain crust froze on the snow surface above. Finally, by conducting in-situ tensile strength tests on the upper snow layers, during simulated rain, we found average decreases in snow strength of approximately 15%. We theorize that avalanche failure of a snow slab over an extensive weak shear layer could be the result of a decrease in tensile strength caused by snowpack warming related to the onset of the sun's radiation or a rain event."<br />http://www.issw.noaa.gov/effects_of_warming_and_rain.htm<br /><br /><br />Bob C.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />voyagerwsh<br />(<font color="#ff0000"><b>M</b></font>)<br />03/12/03 10:49 AM<br /><br />Key to identify possible past hydrothermal activities on Mars could come from MERs in situ experiment on hematite. The implication of liquid water flowed on Mars in the past could have formed the iron-riched rocks into ferrous oxides, such as Fe₂O₃, of course some would argue the ultra violet consequence. However, the presence of liquid water would be compelling if layered hematites [1] should be discovered on Meridiani Planum.<br /><br />Rlb2, it is my understanding that THEMIS has yet to detect geothermal spot on Mars up to this point. [2]<br /><br />References<br /><br />1. Red Rovers: Returning to Mars, Astrobiology Magzine, NASA<br /><br />2. Early Results from the Odyssey THEMIS Investigation. Abstract, P. Christensen et al., LPSC XXXIV.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />rlb2<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 02:46 AM<br /><br /><font color="yellow">And what is Christensen's favorite scenario?<br /><br />"I have come to think that it's probably a hydrothermal process" that formed the hematite. He imagines a frozen lake covering layers of iron-bearing sediment. Some underground heat source melts the ice, causing water to flow through the sediments. As it flows through, it dissolves iron from the sediments. Downstream it re-precipitates the iron as hematite.<br /><br />It is not the hematite, however, but the water in the hematite-formation process that has Christensen intrigued.<br /><br />"The hematite itself is not particularly interesting. We know it's there; we've mapped it. So what? I argue that it's a beacon that says, water was here, okay? And so now if you're looking for the most interesting places to go land, there's a beacon that says, hey, there was mineral evidence of water here, go there. And you look in detail and see what else is there."<br /><br />http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=769<br /><br /><font color="black">Tomorrow begins today and never ends<font color="black"></font></font></font>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />voyagerwsh<br />(<font color="#ff0000"><b>M</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 11:14 AM<br /><br />Perhaps, ground ice is heated by geothermal energy source (e.g. volcano) and interacted with surrounding minerals dissolved as brine that flowed down in the crater and valley wall to form dark streaks. Interestingly, new streaks were formed in the months interval when images being examined by Tahirih Motazedian, of the University of Oregon (1). They are happening today.<br /><br />1. Water 'flows' on Mars, BBC

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />AlexBlackwell<br />(<font color="#ccffff"><b>A</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 05:41 PM<br /><br />Gray Iron Oxide on Mars<br /><br />--- A deposit of gray hematite in Terra Meridiani may suggest that water once circulated through the rock layers in this region of Mars.<br /><br />Written by Linda M.V. Martel<br />posted March 13, 2003<br />Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology<br /><br /><br /><br />Alex R. Blackwell<br />University of Hawaii

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />AlexBlackwell<br />(<font color="#ccffff"><b>A</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 05:47 PM<br /><br />NASA's Mars Odyssey Changes Views about Red Planet<br /><br />Alex R. Blackwell<br />University of Hawaii

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />AlexBlackwell<br />(<font color="#ccffff"><b>A</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 06:23 PM<br /><br />1 Year of THEMIS Mapping Mission<br />THEMIS Press Release (March 13, 2003)<br /><br /><br /><br />Alex R. Blackwell<br />University of Hawaii

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />farmer<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 06:54 PM<br /><br />Alex:<br /><br />As my previuos thread that I stated to you.<br /><br />We have here in the San Joaquin valley from the Sierra's down into the farm lands.<br />We have under ground Caverns in the water Aquafir layer, running water that has ( Trapped FISH ) 200-300 feet beneight our soil. Caverns formed millions of years.<br /><br />NOW that said, a question.<br /><br />It is very likely possible that Mars also have similar Caverns with running water in them formed millions of year ago.<br /><br />My thinking that mars caverns have running water that is protected in the soil from mars cold environment and wind.<br />Water that is kept warm from mars inner layer.<br /><br />Now, are we searching only the top soil?.<br /><br />Can a probe be sent to map a layer of mars down to 500 feet?.<br /><br />Anyone with comments wecomed.<br /><br />Lets find that MARS drinking fountain for our explorers to mars.<br /><br />Blue Diamond Almonds<br />A can a week is all we ask

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />rlb2<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/13/03 10:22 PM<br /><br />All options should be on the table on how these gullies formed but my favorite is the Pascal Lees observation on Devon Island. The question I have on the gray theory is how does he account for the position of these gullies. They appear to be in sun sheltered areas therefore the sun may play a role in their formation.<br /><br /><font color="black">Tomorrow begins today and never ends<font color="black"><br /><br />Terrestrial/Martian Gullies (image)</font></font>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />rlb2<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/14/03 09:43 AM<br /><br />This is also said at that link you provided.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"She speculates that geothermal activity driven by volcanic heat may be causing the melting of subsurface ice. The water dissolves surrounding minerals to form a super-saline brine which, because it contains salts, can remain liquid at lower temperatures and pressures than pure water can."<br /><br /><br />"The water dissolves surrounding minerals to form a super-saline brine which, because it contains salts, can remain liquid at lower temperatures and pressures than pure water can."<br /><br /><font color="white">That is good news. Seems like we are getting more and more good news every day. If they are warm spots on Mars then life has a lot better chance of being present today. I'm curious about the previous photos of the gullies that have been observed happening in sun sheltered areas. There may be different processes happening on Mars that can encompass more than one theory at different locations.<br /><br />Slow geothermal melting of brine and refreezing may build up in flat areas to produce mounds. This processed mentioned above if proving to be accepted may be responsible for the mounds that are observed in the southern polar cap region that resemble trees. This may be a brine and mineral mixture of a less explosive version of Old Faithful. I think previous thoughts on that were that the tree like dark spots was created by sublimation of the CO2 during the South Pole summer season.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="black">Tomorrow begins today and never ends<font color="black"></font></font></font></font>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />voyagerwsh<br />(<font color="#ff0000"><b>M</b></font>)<br />03/14/03 10:18 AM<br /><br />Implication of olivine found on the Ganges Chasma does suggest that portion of Mars has been cold and dry for billions of years. On the other hand, the difference of K/Th compositional diversity on the northern mid latitude points to liquid water's presence, since K is more receptive to liquid water.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

Sorry, unable to recover Mars Water Debate Rages ( Page 18 )<br /><br />~Serak_the_Preparer (Interstellar Culinary Specialist, Retired Pong Champion, Mad Archivist)

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />farmer<br />(<font color="#ff6600"><b>K</b></font>)<br />03/28/03 09:47 PM<br /><br />Hi Alex:<br /><br />I asked you a question on this thread 3-13-03<br /><br />About possible underground water caverns on Mars.<br /><br />Have you thought about the possibility of existing as we have in our Valley?.<br /><br />Please state your coments. Interested.<br /><br />Blue Diamond Almonds<br />A can a week is all we ask

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />rlb2<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/29/03 02:43 AM<br /><br />My favorite little animal that may survive on Mars is the Tardigrade. Some Tarigrades hangout in Antarctica and live on black algae and mosses. When the sun is warm enough to heat the algae up and melt the ice they come out of anabiosis and feed on the algae. Some scientists think that these little buggers may have been one of the panspermia seeds that started life on Earth. Here is something out of the encyclopedia about them.<br /><br />"The harsh climate and sparse vegetation of Antarctica’s land regions support only microscopic animals and primitive insects. Protozoans, nematodes, tardigrades, and other minute forms inhabit damp soils. Other invertebrate species include springtails and mites. The wingless midge, which grows up to 12 mm (0.47 in) long, is the largest land animal.<br /><br />Scientific classification: Tardigrades make up the phylum Tardigrada. It is not clear to what other animals tardigrades are most closely related, but they are most similar to arthropods (insects, crustaceans, etc.), annelids (segmented worms), and gastrotrichs.<br />Tardigrade, any of a group of tiny arthropod-like animals characterized by four pairs of stubby legs ending in large claws, a stout body, rounded back, and lumbering gait. They are also known as “water bears.” Tardigrades live worldwide in moist land habitats, along rocky shorelines, and on the bottoms of streams, lakes, and oceans. Their most striking feature is their ability to temporarily enter a nearly lifeless state known as anabiosis, which helps them survive environmental extremes. About 400 species of tardigrades are known and they range in length from 0.1 to 0.5 mm (0.004 to 0.02 in).<br /><br />Tardigrades are most commonly found in asso

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />spaceseed<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/29/03 01:20 PM<br /><br />rlb2: Can you tell me which "scientists think that these [tardigrades] may have been one of the panspermia seeds that started life on Earth"?<br /><br />There is no evidence for the existence of complex animals such as tardigrades before the Cambrian explosion about 540 million years ago. If the original life on earth did come from space, it was bacteria, or possibly a simpler ancestor. If such an animal did arrive from space, it would not survive because the Earth did not develop an oxygen atmosphere until about 2 billion years later.<br /><br />If it took 3.5 billion years for these things to evolve on Earth, it is highly unlikely they had a chance to arise in the much harsher environment on Mars. It seems doubtful that the warm wet period on Mars (if there indeed was one) lasted nearly long enough for cyanobacteria-like organisms to evolve and create an oxygenated atmosphere.<br /><br />Even if a meteor impact on Earth somehow ejected a rock containing tardigrades that ended up on Mars, they could not live there without oxygen. So you can be sure we will not find creatures like these on Mars, not even in fossils.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />rlb2<br />(<font color="#ffcc66"><b>G</b></font>)<br />03/29/03 04:31 PM<br /><br />I've read about the possibility of these extremeaphile being not of Earthly origin in several different extracts. I don't know how well these scientist works was considered acceptable. I will get back to you on this after I find it on the web.<br /><br /><font color="orange">If such an animal did arrive from space, it would not survive because the Earth did not develop an oxygen atmosphere until about 2 billion years later.<br /><br /><font color="white">"All tardigrades are aquatic. They need to be in water to live, to find food, to breathe, to reproduce, and to move. There are marine, freshwater, and limno-terrestrial species. The latter are the subject of this booklet and live in the water droplets trapped in the space between the leaves of moss cushions, the thalli of lichens, and leaf litter. Here they share a micro-world with other organisms (collembola, mites, rotifers, and nematodes) and endure extreme environmental cycles from flood to drought."<br /><br />Here are some good places on the web to view some research on the Tardigrades.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://kancrn.org/tardigrades/cbackground.cfm<br /><br />A real good QuickTime movie of the little buggers is at<br /><br />http://kancrn.org/tardigrades/multimedia/TARD2.mov<br /><br /><font color="black">Tomorrow begins today and never ends</font></font></font>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />gbbaker<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/30/03 06:13 AM<br /><br /><br />What we need as a pioneering organism that is a true mesophilic lithautotroph that does not need there to be already established levels of organic carbons in the soil.<br />Extremely desirable in my opinion is one which would convert rust to magnetite thereby reducing the surface albedo and raising the temperature of the surface (and slightly below it) which makes it easier for the organisms to survive and spread.<br />Not to mention that there are magnetospheric benefits to having all the rust turned to magnetite (it would widen the crustal magnetic stripes).<br /><br />Geobacter metallireducens is perfect in every aspect except that it needs organic carbons in it's environment.<br />Let me point out how close it is to perfect for using on Mars to convert the rust to magnetite.<br /><br />1) It's anaerobic (doesn't need oxygen)<br /><br />2) It's mesophilic (between 20° and 45° C.)<br /><br />3) It grows flagella for movement and accessing electron acceptors when grown on rust.<br />As opposed to using "electron shuttles" which would definitely be a waste of energy given that there would be no other organisms secreting them.<br />It is the most successful "iron reducer" that we have discovered so far.<br /><br />4) No matter what pioneer organism is finally chosen and used that can truly survive and multiply on mars<br />(which means the first one that needs no assistance and can respire and obtain energy from the elements that exist there right now) we end up with dead bacteria (which means organic carbons and ammonia in the soil).<br /><br />The only problems in using Geobacter metallireducens (as opposed to something else) on mars

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />spaceseed<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/30/03 01:26 PM<br /><br />Interesting discussion, but we have wandered off topic. This thread is about evidence for water on mars. We should be discussing potential Martian lifeforms in the Life on Mars thread in the SETI forum (which is mostly a wasteland, but this is a good thread).

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />gbbaker<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/31/03 01:41 AM<br /><br />Be patient I'm coming to that.<br />Is it not pretty much established that there is plenty of ice on mars?<br />Haven't there been enough papers and evidence that have already come out during the middle of this thread to pretty much settle the idea that there is plenty of ice there and that some of it (small amounts) seems to be melting and flowing for short periods of time?<br /><br />Well anyways.....<br />when I'm done pointing out what can and should be done with geobacter metallireducens the next issue is how it could be placed on the surface in the equatorial areas so that it has access to liquid water and how it can be retained as liquid and vapor.<br /><br />So that is how this post by me comes into the discussion here.<br />-----------------------------------------------------------<br />In the meantime, while I'm trying to figure out genetically how and with what to change metallireducens so that it is capable of getting around the issue of it needing priorly existing organic carbons, I wanted to make a few other notes about metallireducens.<br /><br />There seems to be indirect evidence that it is also capable of utilizing gold, chromium, silver, and mercury as electron donors.<br />From<br />http://zdna.micro.umass.edu/publications/8387263.pdf<br /><br />"The finding that the c-type cytochrome(s) of G. metallireducens is oxidized in the presence of Fe(III), U (VI), or nitrate suggests that c-type cytochrome(s) may be a component of the electron transport chain(s) leading to these terminal electron acceptors. The oxidation of the c-type cytochrome(s) in the presence of Cr(VI), Hg(II), Ag(I), or Au(III) suggests that G. meta

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />spaceseed<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />03/31/03 10:16 PM<br /><br />I see three levels of discussion: Water on Mars (this thread), Existing life on Mars (the SETI thread), and a third discussion about introducing life to Mars.<br /><br />But given the discussion is here, I am curious about how genetically different Deinococcus radiodurans is from Geobacter metallireducens. How possible is it to transfer characteristics from one to the other? I suspect it is a bit beyond our capabilities at the moment.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<br />mentalavenger<br />(<font color="#ff0000"><b>M</b></font>)<br />03/31/03 11:36 PM<br /><br />I have yet to see any credible evidence that we could use micro-biology to accomplish anything useful on Mars, especially in the early stages. There is no reason to believe that it would be practical, or even desirable to attempt to change the albedo of Mars. Even if microorganisms could make a significant change in the surface, it would transient at best due to the periodic dust storms on Mars, which would obliterate all traces of change in a few minutes. Even if the dust storms did not completely wipe out all the changes in albedo, the small difference would not produce a significant, or permanent, change in temperature.<br /><br />In addition, I have yet to see a single credible bit of evidence that this so-called magnetite production would have any effect on the magnetic field of Mars. Also, I have seen nothing that would suggest that IF there was a change, that it would be a beneficial change.<br /><br />So what is the point? The point is, all this lovely discussion about microorganisms is moot if it cannot be shown that it would accomplish any productive goals in the real world.<br /><br />The bottom line was, and still is, that when we go to Mars, we will build underground habitats in which we will live and work. In perhaps 2000 years we will have made sufficient advances in technology that we might be able to produce a livable environment on the surface. Perhaps by then we will have reached the conclusion that it is not even worth the trouble and expense.<br /><br /><b><font color="yellow">REALITY: What a concept!</font></b> ....................................><Ç(((Ç°>/safety_wrapper>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

gbbaker<br />(<font color="#66ccff"><b>B</b></font>)<br />04/01/03 04:01 AM<br /><br />Hi spaceseed,<br />It is different but it is close. If you look at the bottom of that pdf link that I gave you will see how close they are to each other.<br /><br />Yes we are fully capable of genetic engineering. It IS NOT BEYOND OUR CAPABILITIES!<br /><br />In fact, just last night I was reading a scientific paper by the DOE (Department Of Energy) which showed radiation and dangerous chemical experiments conducted with d. Radiodurans where they were adding in genes from other organisms.<br /><br />I can no longer locate the document but you will see on this page;<br />http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast14dec99_1.htm<br /><br />that they make specific reference to this work:<br /><br />"Daly has been active in developing D. radiodurans as a special model for bioremediation to clean radioactive supersites left over from the Cold War," Richmond explained. Some of those sites contain radioactive materials that are not easily removed by other microbes. While some other bacteria are being genetically engineered to thrive in toxic conditions while converting hazardous waste into reusable effluent, none can resist radiation the way D. radiodurans can.<br /><br />Already, Daly and his colleagues have devised D. radiodurans variants that can clean up mercury, a deadly heavy metal, and toluene, a dangerous solvent. This work was sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy.<br /><br />The capability to insert genes also makes D. radiodurans a candidate for Mars pharmacists and to become "the plow that broke the plains" on Mars."

 

[alokmohan]

Tell me if kepler mission and tpf are same thing.

 

[eagledare]

Check this link for water on Mars http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Wandering_Poles_Could_Explain_Ups_And_Downs_Of_Ancient_Martian_Shoreline_999.html

 

[MeteorWayne]

Why you would tell us about this, I have no idea.<br /><br />No "expansion"s required, in fact the physics that the rest of us use explains this..<br /><br />Thanx for the link!!<br /><br />Of course, this is very old news. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>