Mars Water Debate Still Rages

[alexblackwell]

<i>Really interesting article on the Tharsis region of Mars. the water vapor pressure is very low tho, but something is better than nothing. Best to get a Rover down there next time around and see if it can find any traces of fresh brine/salt deposits.</i><br /><br />I would love to see a lander or rover at Tharsis. However, due to its elevation the region is a difficult landing zone to target with current technology. Landers that utilize aerobraking and/or parachutes for EDL are currently constrained to land at lower elevations below the datum to allow for sufficient deceleration. That said, the Russians were going to target Tharsis with a penetrator probe. In my opinion, though, only a full-scale lander would do justice there.

 

[alexblackwell]

<i>Those who favor an earlier warm, wet Mars often need a thicker atmosphere to maintain water. The evidence, as suggested in the old thread, might be found implanted upon one or both of the Martian moons.</i><br /><br />Welcome back, borman. Yes, I agree. And as I noted in the old thread, I think studying the two martian moons should be given a higher priority for many reasons, including the one you cite above. Hopefully, a sample return concept such as Gulliver: Deimos Sample Return Mission or something similar to the Aladdin mission, which was proposed a couple of times for the Discovery Program, gets approved. The Russians have also made noises with their PHOBOS-GRUNT idea but no one I know takes this proposal seriously, unless, of course, someone else funds it. At any rate, Mars Express is slated (as was Nozomi) to fly by both moons and should give us some new data.

 

[alexblackwell]

A new and interesting paper in press with <i>Icarus</i>:<br /> <br /><b>Geological features indicative of processes related to the hematite formation in Meridiani Planum and Aram Chaos, Mars: a comparison with diagenetic hematite deposits in southern Utah, USA</b><br />Jens Ormö, Goro Komatsu, Marjorie A. Chan, Brenda Beitler and William T. Parry<br /><i>Icarus</i>, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 28 July 2004<br />Abstract<br /><br />By the way, kudos to Serak_the_Preparer for his/her massive cyber-archeology effort in excavating the original "Mars Water Debate Rages" thread, which was buried in the SDC apocalypse. Reading through some of my old posts is like watching home movies ;-)

 

[alexblackwell]

Published online today in <i>JGR-Planets</i>:<br /><br />Mangold, N.; Maurice, S.; Feldman, W. C.; Costard, F.; Forget, F.<br /><b>Spatial relationships between patterned ground and ground ice detected by the Neutron Spectrometer on Mars</b><br /><i>J. Geophys. Res</i>., Vol. 109, No. E8, E08001<br />10.1029/2004JE002235<br />03 August 2004<br />Abstract

 

[imran10]

Water could mean Mars hills were alive<br />By Sue Vorenberg <br />Albuquerque Tribune<br />August 2, 2004

 

[alexblackwell]

From the August 2, 2004 issue of <i>Aviation Week & Space Technology</i>:<br /><br />"European Space Agency officials say startup of the subsurface sounding radar on the Mars Express orbiter is now likely to be delayed until the end of the nominal two-year scientific mission, in late 2005, because of uncertainties related to deployment of the radar's long folding boom. Scientists had hoped for a green light this autumn to switch on the radar, which is intended to search for the presence of underground aquifers that are thought to hold most of Mars' elusive water supply (AW&ST July 19, p. 49). ESA is reluctant to take a chance on deployment until it has obtained the bulk of scientific data from the mission's other instruments, which are performing flawlessly."

 

[alexblackwell]

The Geological Society of America 2004 Annual Meeting<br />Denver, Colorado<br />November 7–10, 2004<br /><br />Technical Sessions & Abstracts<br /><br />Note the following sessions:<br /><br />6. Planetary Geology<br />37. Planetary Geology (Posters)<br />T144. Mars Mineralogy: The View from MER<br />203. P7. Seeing Mars With New Eyes: Active Missions, Science Results, and Geoscience Education

 

[jitte]

Evidence of a flood in the Ares Valles region.<br /><br />http://www.uberkomplex.com/hydro.html

 

[exoscientist]

Thanks, for the links. I'm interested in hearing the results of the GRS spectrometer for near surface hydrogen(water) during Mars perihelion in August, 2003.<br /> This is when Mars receives the greatest amount of global solar heating and when large scale water deposits might be revealed.<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

polarwander, much of Tharsis in that image you posted is colored red or yellow, which counts as thick crust.<br /> In any case the scientists who hypothesize a former ocean on Mars constrain its extent by the contiguous low-elevation region in the northern hemisphere not necessarily by crustal thickness.<br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alexblackwell]

Published online today in <i>Geophysical Research Letters</i>:<br /><br />Wilson, Lionel; Head, James W., III<br /><b>Evidence for a massive phreatomagmatic eruption in the initial stages of formation of the Mangala Valles outflow channel, Mars</b><br /><i>Geophys. Res. Lett</i>., Vol. 31, No. 15, L15701<br />10.1029/2004GL020322<br />04 August 2004<br />Abstract<br /><br />Stepinski, T. F.; Coradetti, S.<br /><b>Comparing morphologies of drainage basins on Mars and Earth using integral-geometry and neural maps</b><br /><i>Geophys. Res. Lett</i>., Vol. 31, No. 15, L15604<br />10.1029/2004GL020359<br />04 August 2004<br />Abstract

 

[alexblackwell]

MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE<br />JET PROPULSION LABORATORY<br />CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY<br />NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION<br />PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011<br />http://www.jpl.nasa.gov<br /><br />Guy Webster (818) 354-6278<br />Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<br /><br />Donald Savage (202) 358-1727<br />NASA Headquarters,Washington, D.C<br /><br />News Release: 2004-194 August 5, 2004<br /><br />Rocks Tell Stories in Reports of Spirit's First 90 Martian Days<br /><br />Scientific findings from the NASA rover Spirit's first three months on<br />Mars will be published Friday, marking the start of a flood of<br />peer-reviewed discoveries in scientific journals from the continuing<br />two-rover adventure.<br /><br />Researchers using Spirit's toolkit of geological instruments from<br />early January into April read the record from rocks and soils in the<br />rover's landing area and found a history of volcanic blanketing,<br />impact cratering, wind effects and possible past episodes of scant<br />underground liquid water. Evidence for the water comes from mineral<br />alteration in the veins, inclusions and coatings of some rocks. Eleven<br />reports with 120 collaborating authors from around the world lay out<br />details in the Aug. 6 issue of the journal Science.<br /><br />"This is the first batch," said Dr. Steve Squyres of Cornell<br />University, Ithaca, N.Y., principal investigator for the science<br />payload on both Mars Exploration Rovers. "You'll be seeing a lot more<br />publications in months ahead and, no doubt, for many years to come<br />based on information from Spirit and Opportunity. These machines just<br />keep going and going, so the science just keeps coming and coming."<br />Dr. Jim Garvin, NASA's Chief Scientist for Mars added, "This is the<br />basis for beginning the remarkable scientific legacy of the rovers<br />that will not only rewrite our textbooks about Mars, but also pave the<br />way for human exploration."<br /><br />

 

[voyagerwsh]

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/collection/planet_sci

 

[thechemist]

#@$%$%%$@#!*<br />My stupid institution does not have a Web electronic license for Science.<br />@#$%#$&^*^%$#@<br />Can anyone send the Gusev papers accidentally by email ? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />Please PM me ! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[thechemist]

These are the abstracts of the first batch of 11 Science papers from Gusev.<br />Copyright: Science Magazine, 2004.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">The Spirit Rover's Athena Science Investigation at Gusev Crater, Mars </font><br /><i> "The Mars Exploration Rover Spirit and its Athena science payload have been used to investigate a landing site in Gusev crater. Gusev is hypothesized to be the site of a former lake, but no clear evidence for lacustrine sedimentation has been found to date. Instead, the dominant lithology is basalt, and the dominant geologic processes are impact events and eolian transport. Many rocks exhibit coatings and other characteristics that may be evidence for minor aqueous alteration. Any lacustrine sediments that may exist at this location within Gusev apparently have been buried by lavas that have undergone subsequent impact disruption."</i> <br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow"> Pancam Multispectral Imaging Results from the Spirit Rover at Gusev Crater </font><br /><i>"Panoramic Camera images at Gusev crater reveal a rock-strewn surface interspersed with high- to moderate-albedo fine-grained deposits occurring in part as drifts or in small circular swales or hollows. Optically thick coatings of fine-grained ferric iron–rich dust dominate most bright soil and rock surfaces. Spectra of some darker rock surfaces and rock regions exposed by brushing or grinding show near-infrared spectral signatures consistent with the presence of mafic silicates such as pyroxene or olivine. Atmospheric observations show a steady decline in dust opacity during the mission, and astronomical observations captured solar transits by the martian moons, Phobos and Deimos, as well as a view of Earth from the martian surface."</i><br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">Initial Results from the Mini-TES Experiment in Gusev Crater from the Spirit Rover </font><br /><i>"The Miniature Thermal Emission Spectrometer (Mini-TES) on Spirit has studied the</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

Surficial Deposits at Gusev Crater Along Spirit Rover Traverses <br />"The Mars Exploration Rover Spirit has traversed a fairly flat, rock-strewn terrain whose surface is shaped primarily by impact events, although some of the landscape has been altered by eolian processes. Impacts ejected basaltic rocks that probably were part of locally formed lava flows from at least 10 meters depth. Some rocks have been textured and/or partially buried by windblown sediments less than 2 millimeters in diameter that concentrate within shallow, partially filled, circular impact depressions referred to as hollows. The terrain traversed during the 90-sol (martian solar day) nominal mission shows no evidence for an ancient lake in Gusev crater." <br /><br /> Obviously written before Spirit reached the Columbia Hills.<br /><br /> Bob <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thechemist]

Yes exoscientist, all these papers are dealing with science results from the primary mission of Spirit, the first 90 Sols.<br />The more interesting stuff about the Columbia Hills will no doubt follow later.<br />The word "water" is mentioned in most of the abstracts, which is a good sign <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[thechemist]

<i><font color="yellow">"Gusev crater is a place that we believe surely must have had liquid water on it at some point," </font>aid principal science investigator Steven Squyres.<font color="yellow">"When you see a hole in the ground with a major riverbed flowing into it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there was water in it at some time."</font></i><br /><br />From this story in Yahoo news.<br /><br />Well, if Squyres says that, he <b> <font color="orange"> must </font></b> already have irrefutable evidence for lots of water in Gusev.<br />Exciting things will come our way ! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[alexblackwell]

From the latest issue of the <i>International Journal of Astrobiology</i> (Volume 3, Issue 01, January 2004):<br /><br /><b>The preservation of fluid inclusions in diverse surface precipitates: the potential for sampling palaeo-water from surface deposits on Mars</b><br />John Parnell and Martin Baron<br /><i>International Journal of Astrobiology</i> (2004), <b>3</b>:21-30 Cambridge University Press<br />DOI 10.1017/S1473550404001867<br />Published Online: 05 Aug 2004<br />Abstract

 

[alexblackwell]

<i>Wilson, Lionel; Head, James W., III <br /><b>Evidence for a massive phreatomagmatic eruption in the initial stages of formation of the Mangala Valles outflow channel, Mars </b><br />Geophys. Res. Lett., Vol. 31, No. 15, L15701 <br />10.1029/2004GL020322 <br />04 August 2004</i><br /><br />~212 Kb PDF reprint available here.

 

[alexblackwell]

There are several Mars water-related papers in the September 2004 issue of <i>Icarus</i>.

 

[alexblackwell]

Water On Mars Elusive, Says Texas A&M Researcher<br /><i>Aggie Daily</i><br />August 10, 2004

 

[exoscientist]

Thanks for the link. This article says: "Only the results of the Spirit rover are detailed in the articles, with information about Opportunity to be published in a future issue."<br /> That surprised me. I thought that at least some results from Opportunity at Meridiani were included in some of the articles in Science. Perhaps they only meant the article by Mark Lemmon didn't include Opportunity?<br /> In any case the conclusion of NO large scale water-lain deposits is surely in conflict with the results at Meridiani, which likely was the location of an ancient sea.<br /> I'm sure also in the letters section of Science there will be responses to these articles arguing that the Columbia Hills do appear to provide evidence of large amounts of water alteration.<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alexblackwell]

<i>This article says: "Only the results of the Spirit rover are detailed in the articles, with information about Opportunity to be published in a future issue." That surprised me. I thought that at least some results from Opportunity at Meridiani were included in some of the articles in Science. Perhaps they only meant the article by Mark Lemmon didn't include Opportunity?</i><br /><br />No, the MER articles in the August 6, 2004 issue of <i>Science</i> are all related to Spirit at Gusev Crater. The initial findings by Opportunity should be ready for publication in a few weeks or so.<br /><br /><i>In any case the conclusion of NO large scale water-lain deposits is surely in conflict with the results at Meridiani, which likely was the location of an ancient sea.</i><br /><br />That is the prevailing theory; however, some of my colleagues from Cornell who were in on the Opportunity findings at Meridiani Planum told me last week: "...the interpretation of the Eagle cross-bedding as fluvial rested primarily on the angles, not the scales, and that thanks to the aeolian cross-bedding in Burns Cliff [some of us] no longer have high confidence in the first (Eagle) interpretation."<br /><br /><i>I'm sure also in the letters section of Science there will be responses to these articles arguing that the Columbia Hills do appear to provide evidence of large amounts of water alteration.</i><br /><br />Well, there's "water alteration" and then there's "water alteration." The papers published in Science <i>specifically</i> refer to the pre-mission hope of finding lacustrine deposits at Gusev, and none have been found to date. The evidence for water alteration at the current surface can be explained by relatively minor amounts of water, not the huge floods that undoubtedly debouched from Ma'adim Vallis into the crater. Those deposits, if they still exist, are probably buried very deeply. However, analysis of the findings at

 

[imran10]

<i>Mars Express may resolve whether these aquifers exist, at whatever depth, when the arm is deployed.</i><br /><br />Unfortunately for which we will have to wait until the nominal mission is over (November 2005). To add insult to the injury, there is no guarantee that it will work as there are still lingering concerns with the radar deployment.