Martian sky is BLUE, tell NASA!

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Do you understand, that to have comparable dusting power, winds on the Mars surface must be much faster?<font color="white"><br /><br />Electrostatic levitation, hence low water concentration in a thin atmosphere resulting in charged dust particles from the solar wind levitating above the surface. Electrostatic levitation has been witnessed on the lunar surface during the Apollo missions.....<br /><br />Yes there is a way to tap into that energy supply....<br /><br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[yevaud]

<font color="yellow">there is not that much dust to be expected in the Martian atmosphere. <br /><br />It is consistent with the fact, that because of the low density of Martian atmosphere, the dust over there sets down 5 times faster than on Earth.</font><br /><br />Discounting Aerosol effects, the seasonal very high winds, and that in the low atmospheric pressure, that dust can achieve pretty stiff velocities.<br /><br />There are fundamental flaws in your reasoning. As expected. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[extrasense]

---Electrostatic levitation---<br /><br />Yes, this is my understanding, that supernatural must be involved here<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">---Electrostatic levitation--- <br /><br />Yes, this is my understanding, that supernatural must be involved here<font color="white"><br /><br />Yea right, they must have been on the moon when the Apollo astronauts were there too....<br /><br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[najab]

><i>Do you understand, that to have comparable dusting power, winds on the Mars surface must be much faster?</i><p>Actually the <b>observed</b> dust devils on Mars form a very efficient mechanism for raising dust into the upper atmosphere.<p>><i>If it is a matter of religious believe for you, it is not to be argued. Otherwise, you do not have a case. </i><p><img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /></p></p></p>

 

[najab]

><i>Yes, this is my understanding, that supernatural must be involved here </i><p>Ermm...es...uhm...there's nothing supernatural about electrostatic levitation. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /></p>

 

[nacnud]

Is electrostatic levitation a result of the photo-electric effect?

 

[najab]

It can be. On Mars it is also likely due to the dry dust grains rubbing against each other.

 

[botch]

You've got it all wrong...it's the GROUND that's blue.<br />Refute THIS you psuedoskeptics!!!!

 

[emho]

Mars has some rather large dust storms:<br /><br />http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast16jul_1.htm?aol4257

 

[extrasense]

----- Actually the observed dust devils on Mars form a very efficient mechanism for raising dust into the upper atmosphere. ----<br /><br />The ones that were observed by Spirit, were so small, that they amount to nothing.<br /><br />Anyway, the sky color shows, there is not much of the visible dust in Mars air.<br /><br />ES<br /><br /><br />

 

[extrasense]

So you had to go 4 years back, to find a storm<br /><br />e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s<br />

 

[vogon13]

Come to vogon13, you sweet sexy thing, you.<br /><br />I love blue complected, triple orbed, multi-gelfs.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>The ones that were observed by Spirit, were so small, that they amount to nothing.</i><p>First off, it is early in the spring at Spirit's location, larger dust devils tend to form in late spring and into summer. Secondly, spirit <b>did</b> observe a few tall dust devils out near the horizon. Thirdly, we have observed dust devils from orbit - some of which have been kilometres high.</p>

 

[extrasense]

Whatever amount of dust there is in the Martian atmosphere, it is obviously not enough to prevent Martian sky to be blue.<br /><br />e <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> s<br />

 

[extrasense]

/* ad hominem deleted */

 

[botch]

<font color="yellow">I love blue complected, triple orbed, multi-gelfs.</font><br /><br />Now <i>that</i> is a side to you i've never seen before <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Let's see. On one side we have international teams of image processors and analysts, experts in spectroscopy and meteorology, who have worked on five space missions over the past 30 years. On the other we have....... <br />extrasense.<br /><br />No contest.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Oh, but you've got that wrong, Jon. ES doesn't think they're experts.<br /><br />See Reply 52 here:<br /><br />http://www.markcarey.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-view.cgi/18/entry/26723/discussion_page?start=41&show=20<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">/* reference to ad hominem deleted */</font><br /><br />A fill-in-the-blank ad hominem…anybody want to take a guess? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[extrasense]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Let's see. On one side we have international teams of image processors and analysts, experts in spectroscopy and meteorology, who have worked on five space missions over the past 30 years. On the other we have....... extrasense. No contest. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Funny, but this is what happens, when science is hijacked by the pseudo <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />ES<br />

 

[yevaud]

<font color="yellow">Funny, but this is what happens, when science is hijacked by the pseudo <br /><br />ES</font><br /><br />Yes, that's true - everyone here enjoys when you return. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Indeed, and it is people like you who are doing the highjacking. <br /><br />However your effort will fail because the real scientists, people who have knowledge and skills you can't even dream of, have shown conclusively that the Martian atmosphere is visibily charged with dust. <br /><br />Have you read and understood the basic science?<br /><br />MER abstract http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2004AGUFM.P21A0197S&amp<br /><br />Pathfinder abstracts http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1999JGR...104.8795T&amp and http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1999JGR...104.8781M&amp<br /><br />Viking abstract http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1977JGR....82.4401H&amp<br /><br />Plus the enormous literature on dust distribution and cycling.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[extrasense]

Jon,<br /><br />There are several ways to address the issue of Martian sky color.<br />1. To have a digital color camera on MER, like I have on my computer, size 2 cm, to take a picture, and send out several pixels of it. - Simplest, and the most accurate.<br />No calibration neeeded.<br /><br />But we are stuck with the BW filtered cameras, hence:<br /><br />2. Phenomenological <br />You have a set of filtered intensities, as being sent out from the MER. You want to transform them into pixel values.<br />So, you look for a formula that would do it.<br />Lets say you have guessed a right formula. How do you check it? You look at the calibration target, apply the formula, and see, if it gives a good estimation for the calibration colors. If you are satisfied on that account, that is all. The formula is cleared, and is used for getting the pixel values for any other set of filtered intensities, sky including. - Simple, and as accurate as it can be for the filtering approach.<br /><br />3. Theoretical<br />You have a set of filtered intensities, as being sent out from the MER. You want to transform them into pixel values.<br />You are saying: There is an actual specter, a wavelength distribution, that was transformed into those intensities by the MER camera.<br />Each intensity is a result of filtering of the actual specter by the particular filter, and then by interaction of the filtered specter with the photosensitive target.<br /><br />Bottom line, that you have <b>3 measured values</b>, and an <b>infinite number of parameters</b> that describe the original specter, which you want to recover as a theoretician, on your first step. It is impossibility, so whichever way you think or pretend you invented of doing it, is wrong way. As a second step, you think, you will find a way of converting the "recovered" specter into pixel values. Which is also impossibility, since now you are going to convert infinity of values into 3 values, and you never can check all the inputs for right output

 

[JonClarke]

1) People don't normally worry about colour calibrating snapshots. But colour images of an unknown or something that requires precision will always need calibration to get accurate images. I take digital and film colour photos for work and the colours need constantly to be be adusted to get the right mix. <br /><br />2) and 3). People have done this and the best results show the sky as dust laden.<br /><br /> We have known for decades the Martian sky is dust laden. We have known for decades that dust moves seasonally on Mars We know that there is a constant recharging of atmospheric dust on a daily and seasonal basis through storms and dust devils. It was predicted before Viking that Mie scattering would be the dominant influence on sky colour. Everything we see is consistent with the known facts and physical theory. The only mystery is the insistance by some of having a blue sky on an alien desert planet.<br /><br />Jon<br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>